Radical Health Rebel
Welcome to the Radical Health Rebel Podcast, where Leigh, a renowned Functional Medicine Practitioner, CHEK Practitioner, CHEK Faculty Instructor, Active Release Techniques® Therapist, Emotion Code Practitioner, author, and podcast host, takes you on a journey to achieve optimal health, wellness, and happiness. With his extensive training and years of clinical experience, Leigh provides a truly holistic approach to health that has proven effective even when other methods have failed.
Join us every week for insightful discussions and expert interviews focusing on chronic pain, gut health, and skin health. Leigh's diverse background and passion for holistic healing brings you valuable knowledge and practical tips from leading experts in the field. Whether you're struggling with persistent health issues or simply looking to enhance your well-being, the Radical Health Rebel Podcast is your go-to resource for achieving a vibrant and healthy life. Tune in and start your journey to radical health today!
Radical Health Rebel
142 - Detoxify Your Gut and Improve Your Health with Dr Joe Mather
Welcome back to the Radical Health Rebel Podcast! In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Joe Mather, a leading expert in functional and environmental medicine. We dive into the powerful role that binders play in optimizing gut health by helping the body remove mold, heavy metals, and other environmental toxins.
Dr. Mather breaks down what binders are, how they work, and the best strategies for using them effectively. We also explore the importance of detoxification, the signs of toxic overload, and how targeted supplementation can support overall health. Whether you're struggling with chronic symptoms or just looking to enhance your gut health, this conversation is packed with valuable insights you won’t want to miss.
We discussed:
0:00
Optimizing Gut Health With Binders
6:29
The Role of Binders in Detoxification
19:51
Oral Binders and Heavy Metal Detox
24:11
Parasites, Testing, and Biochemical Individuality
38:44
Evaluating Binders for Toxin Removal
43:59
The Importance of Environmental Toxin Awareness
50:26
The Role of Binders in Detoxification
1:01:47
Dosage and Preparation With Binders
You can find Dr Joe @:
http://www.doctormather.com
http://www.youtube.com/@doctormather
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You can find Leigh @:
Leigh's website - https://www.bodychek.co.uk/
Leigh's books - https://www.bodychek.co.uk/books/
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I see elevated mercury levels and then I see thallium and cadmium. There are others, but those four metals are the ones I most commonly see in my patients who haven't gotten better despite our lifestyle work, despite our work with the GI tract. And after doing those two levels is when I really start looking for other toxins and time and time again, using binders, charcoal, clay, chlorella, probiotic species, I see heavy metal levels drop.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Radical Health Rebel podcast. I'm your host, lee Brandom. This work started for me several decades ago when I started to see the impact I could make on people, helping them to identify the root cause of their health problems that no doctor could figure out, including serious back, knee, shoulder and neck injuries, acne and eczema issues, severe gut health problems, even helping couples get pregnant after several IVF treatments had failed. And it really moves me to be able to help people in this way, and that is why I do what I do and why we have this show.
Speaker 2:In this episode, I'm joined by Dr Joe Mather, a leading expert in functional and environmental medicine. We dive into the powerful role that binders play in optimizing gut health by helping the body remove mold, heavy metals and other environmental toxins. Dr Mathur breaks down what binders are, how they work and the best strategies for using them effectively. We also explore the importance of detoxification, the signs of toxic overload and how targeted supplementation can support overall health. Whether you're struggling with chronic symptoms or just looking to enhance your gut health, this conversation is packed with valuable insights you won't want to miss. Dr Joe Mather, welcome to the Radical Health Rebel podcast. Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 1:I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's great to have you here, and I was saying off air that I come across you via a presentation that you did a few weeks ago, which was absolutely excellent, and it's a subject that I feel is really, really important today, and I'll explain more as we go as to why I feel it's such an important topic. But, to kick things off, could you perhaps share a little bit about your own journey, including your kind of educational and professional background?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a medical doctor. I'm trained in family practice, so I treat kids and adults and I've been in practice about a decade and I've always been interested in the patients who fall through the cracks right, the patients who just haven't gotten better with the standard approach. And I got into integrative and functional medicine at the tail end of my conventional medical training. I remember sitting in clinic and just feeling so frustrated that the patients weren't getting better and I was giving all of the guideline based treatments. I was giving the latest drugs, I was listening, you know, I was doing everything I was taught to do to get results and people weren't getting better and it came down to conventional medicine didn't have all of the tools and all the answers and so I had to branch out.
Speaker 1:And so in my medical career I've tried to keep the best tools in conventional medicine and not throw those out, keep the evidence-based approach, keep the grounding in the scientific literature whenever we can, but also be open to all the tools and integrated and functional medicine. And so I like to keep a foot in both arenas as best I can. And I generally treat patients with chronic illness and they tend to be patients with ongoing GI issues that haven't gotten better, despite seeing many doctors, many practitioners and then patients with chronic fatigue and chronic pain syndromes, and that's what brought me into the arena I think that we'll be talking about today looking for reasons why these patients weren't getting better, and environmental toxicity, again and again, has that that thing that's holding the sickest group of patients back. And so that that's the short, uh, the short of it yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean you know we've both got to a degree functional medicine backgrounds and what is quite interesting as well. So my my, just so that you know. I mean most of my listeners know I tend to work with people with chronic pain, gastrointestinal issues, but also skin issues, which are quite often coming from the same things that cause gastrointestinal problems absolutely yeah, and and it just also happens to be that's my own personal experience as well I've gone through, you know, quite serious physical injuries.
Speaker 2:I've had gastrointestinal issues, but it all really started from skin issues, yeah, and then, you know, some of the medical treatments that I had wasn't very good for my gut, so then I had gut issues. Um, so, yeah, so, um, so we kind of help similar people. I don't tend to attract people that are like chronic fatigue type people, but, um, yeah, we're, we're kind of. We're kind of coming from a, from a similar page, so to speak. What would be good to to start talking about and obviously this is really the subject of your presentation that that you did a few weeks ago what?
Speaker 2:One of the things that I guess has become more and more understood by myself as I've developed over the last almost three decades now, is that when it comes to health, you can almost this is certainly my view. You're free to disagree with my view health it's nearly always down to either a lack of nutrients, toxins or a combination of those two. That's, that's kind of what I've said. That's been my experience and where and where your presentation came in so well. I mean, it's interesting that you know, and what we're going to be talking about is binders, and it's interesting that only about four years ago did I first hear the term binders, even though I'd been using them for many, many years. Um, but it is a very, very big and hot topic nowadays. So, with that in mind, could you just give the audience a view of what binders actually are and how they actually work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, binders are substances that you swallow orally and they stay in the GI tract collecting toxins, and so it's important they're not systemically absorbed. You would probably think of charcoal as the classic natural binder. And what they're doing is they're collecting toxins so you can excrete them through the stool, because, generally speaking, we have two main routes of excretion of toxins. You have the ability to excrete toxins in the stool and then you have the ability to urinate out toxins after kidney metabolism. And it turns out it's pretty hard to influence kidney metabolism and the renal excretion other than saying stay hydrated, right. And so when looking to detoxify, we're kind of left with the GI tract and that's where the binders come in.
Speaker 1:But I became fascinated about this after beginning to treat patients with mold. My mentor, dr Neil Nathan, introduced me to the use of binders and I really just became fascinated by them, wondering if they had wider applicability to more patients. I found what they did and I found out that just the answer of binders directly binding toxins in the GI tract for excretion was really only part of the way they worked. So I'll just before I just keep babbling at you. Does that all make sense, lee?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see, one misunderstanding is people say that they have this idea of binders kind of traveling throughout the body, you know, throughout the blood vessels and the lymphatic fluid, grabbing toxins. And it's important to remember that they really are just staying in the GI track and there's only a finite amount of toxins. If you think of mold toxins, if you're thinking of carcinogens, plastics, endotoxins, there's only a finite amount of toxins that are just hanging out in the gut, because for a person who's having regular bowel movements, right, there is a movement out and so if you're just grabbing on the toxins, that is, inside the tube of the GI tract, you're not going to be able to have much improvement over time. But the neat thing is that the binders that I like to focus on in practice are things that are influencing the bile. So it turns out that a lot of toxins are stuck in what we call the enterohepatic recirculation, which is a huge word but a simple concept.
Speaker 1:The body makes bile to digest food right, and it's very expensive to make. So the body ends up reabsorbing a lot of the bile to repackage and reuse again right. If you had to make all sorts of bile after every meal, you'd quickly run out and become nutrient deprived of what the substance is that it takes to make bile. So the body reabsorbs the bile, but the trick is is that bile has the ability to grab onto toxins. Toxins cling to the outside edge and so, as the bile gets reabsorbed, the toxins can get reabsorbed, and then they hang out in the liver and they're excreted into the GI tract and then they're reabsorbed again and that's the recirculation.
Speaker 1:It's one of the ways in which we can have a toxic burden grow in the body, right, because we're constantly reabsorbing very small molecules, like mold toxins. And so what I learned is that the binders that are working the best are really the ones that are directly grabbing onto bile itself, so it's not reabsorbed or is able to impact how much bile is secreted. So we have the ability to grab onto more of those bile-laden toxins to excrete. And so they're really fascinating binders, clinical tools, and I think we're just scratching the surface of what we know about them. Yeah, so I would love to hear what binders you've used in practice and, uh, any more questions you have?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I guess the first one that I used, probably 20 years ago, would have been chlorella yeah now I've been using one that I know you don't particularly think is particularly good um, which is zeolite oh man, all right, we could.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about that one in a minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but keep going um, I've used charcoal a little bit with clients, but not not a huge amount. Um, what is interesting and you know, again this is going back to your presentation, and I'm talking about zeolite is that? And well, not just zeolite, but we were talking about taking too much of a binder, and I guess I'm sure we'll probably come on to this a bit later but, what was?
Speaker 2:what was interesting was for the last few months occasionally I'll be getting headache and I was thinking right I need to try and work out what the root cause of this headache is. And I was thinking right I need to try and work out what the root cause of this headache is.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:And it tended to be on days that I ate venison. So I'm thinking oh, I wonder if I have a sensitivity to venison, right, right, right. And then in one day I ate venison and there's no headache, okay, interesting. But then obviously sensitivities can take more than 24 hours, 48 hours to actually have an effect, etc. Yeah, and then I watched your presentation and you were saying I'm not really too keen on zeolite, the evidence isn't great, etc. And I thought let me just take that out and just see what happens. So what I've been doing I've been actually, uh, rotating binders, so one day I'll have chlorella, one day I have zeolite. That's kind of what I've been doing. And so I took the zeolite out and I've just been using chlorella every day and since I've done that, I've had no headache that's uh, that.
Speaker 1:That mirrors my own moan experience with zeolite. I just have seen too many patients come in and they just feel bad on it. They take it because they've heard good things about it or someone recommended it, but when, when push came to shove, more patients were feeling bad on it than good on it. And in my experience people don't get well pushing through symptoms. This this slows them down and it's the body's way of saying you're pushing this system too hard, or this is not the treatment I need right now or this is the wrong dose. And in my medical practice I really want people to not be forcing through things and learning to listen to their body so they can figure out the right way out of chronic illness. And so when I went to formulate a binder and was looking in what would be the best substances you know there is a treasure trove of clinical literature, right, and we have lots of studies that directly compare. Okay, you have this toxin and you can have these binders. You know what percent of the toxin is left if you mix the two together and, study after study, zeolite just performed near the bottom. You know there was a very cool one study where they looked at the mycotoxin zeorilinone, and this is a mold toxin that's fairly commonly found on testing and influences hormonal systems in the body, causes quite a lot of inflammation, and they were looking at different binders. And whereas charcoal in this test tube study bound 100% of Z-aralinone and then bentonite clay a little bit less Z-aralinone, performed near worst, almost similar to a control substance that had no binding ability, and you would just see this again and again that zeolite itself just wasn't that strong of a binder and it has to do with the structure of it.
Speaker 1:It's really inflexible. It's almost a crystalline matrix in the way it interacts and that means that it's very inflexible when interacting in a biological system, and you could compare that to something like bentonite clay. These are both clays, by the way, zeolite clay and bentonite clay. And bentonite clay has more of a layering effect and through osmotic pressures we can have lots of absorptive area on the bentonite clay, whereas the absorptive area on the zeolite is much smaller. I think that has the biggest reason to do with why people just don't do as well on it. So that was one of the ones that made my naughty list and went out of my way not to include yeah, yeah, it's interesting, you know when I, when I look back, the headaches only started when I upped the dose sure you know.
Speaker 2:So, again, that just suggests, as you, you know, as you alluded to, could be just pushing it too, yeah you know that's. That's what we call a herxheimer reaction, isn't it? You know that was my symptom. You know my symptom just happened to be a headache, but that's an important lesson for all of us, isn't it? You know, if you get a symptom again, as I did, my question was okay, what's causing that?
Speaker 2:I didn't think let's go to the pharmacy and let me get medication to numb the pain. Right For sure. Yeah, the question is what's causing the headache? Right, and that's, and that's that's a lesson for for all of us to to follow. Really, um, you mentioned, um, mold, mold toxins, but what some of the other toxins that that binders are very, uh, useful for.
Speaker 1:Well, the main other class would be heavy metals, and in my practice I see more and more patients coming in with problems of elevated blood lead levels. I see elevated mercury levels and then I see thallium and cadmium. There are others, but those four metals are the ones I most commonly see in my patients who haven't gotten better despite our lifestyle work, despite our work with the GI tract. And after doing those two levels is when I really start looking for other toxins and time and time again, using binders charcoal, clay, chlorella, probiotic species I see heavy metal levels drop and I think that's really important. So heavy metals and mold toxins are the two main classes of toxins that I see binders work on.
Speaker 1:But the really neat thing is that there's a growing literature recognizing the huge variety of environmental toxins. It's not just metals and mold. It's metals and mold and endotoxins toxins produced by bacterial species in the body. It's actually a breakdown product of a bacterial cell wall. You see carcinogens, plastics.
Speaker 1:There's a really wide, growing amount of toxins that we're being exposed to in our modern world and I think it's really important that we have ways to fight back and that's where I see the binders really coming in is a way to mitigate. It doesn't prevent the exposures that we are exposed to and it's not going to completely fix the problem. But the analogy I often use with my patients is you know, you've got a bathtub full of toxins and right now we've got the drain, and can we just open that drain a little bit more, can we get a little bit more out? You still have a spigot of water coming in, but binders often just let you drain more out. It gives you a little more resiliency. A little bit more buoyancy might be the right word when healing from disease.
Speaker 1:So that's how I see it and that's one of the reasons I'm excited to use binders more and more in my practice is because it's not just metals, it's not just mold. I think those things are the tip of the iceberg. Those are the things that we commonly measure, at least in functional medicine. We don't have good assays to test for the thousands of carcinogens and food additives and coloring and excipients that get into our diet. We are just scratching the surface of being able to test for microplastics and nanoplastics in the urine, and so I think we just need to be a bit preventative.
Speaker 2:Have you seen any evidence of binders being able to help with some of those other environmental toxins, the plastics, etc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so right now it's preclinical literature. So what we have are studies showing that probiotic species can be effective at helping improve the urinary excretion and metabolism of microplastics and a few other studies that show that probiotics and I think charcoal don't quote me on that, but I think there's one other besides probiotics may be able to attach to the microplastics so that they can be expelled in the stool. It's very early. This is really just on the scientific literature on the mind for the last few years, and so we've got a lot of work to do, but I'm hopeful and optimistic that the binders that we were using are binding to much, much more than just the metals and mold that we commonly talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting. You're talking about mercury and cadmium. So one of the people I tend to help, probably the most these days now, is actually adults with acne. Probably the most these days now is actually adults with acne. And yes, you know, when I've I've done a pretty deep dive into the literature and the two metals that come up most commonly with acne are mercury and cadmium. And certainly from my own clients, the one that's come up the most is mercury. For sure, and, and similar to to what you were saying, I've had clients you know they come to me and we improve their diet, we, we work on the on the gut health, but it's still not, still not getting the job done. And then you know, you do, you run a heavy metals test and while mercury is just sky high, you get the mercury down to a, you know, normal level.
Speaker 2:The skin clears up yeah, yeah you know, it's quite interesting that is.
Speaker 1:That is the fun thing about testing and looking for metals, particularly when, when you have access to to treatments that are not invasive, they're not high risk, intensive, high cost ivy chelation therapies that some doctors are doing here in the US those make me quite uncomfortable. But when you have oral binders, when you have probiotics, when you have nutrients like N-acetylcysteine and selenium, I use those all the time and I see heavy metal levels drop, and so it's really nice to have a kind of a safe oral program that we can get results with. So that's great.
Speaker 2:I see something very similar in my practice, lee yeah, and the other thing you mentioned there is selenium. Again, I find nearly everyone's low in selenium as well.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you find that in the us you know I I don't do a lot of micronutrient testing in my practice, but I do give a decent amount of selenium to my patients, so particularly I think it's really not widely known how important it is in mercury mitigation and removal.
Speaker 2:It's a very, very important cofactor, and so anyone with elevated blood or urinary mercury levels I give selenium to and I think that's pretty important not to miss it was a case of you know, you run, say, a stool test on someone and you know if they've got a fungal overgrowth, then you give them some antifungal herbs. If they've got a parasite, you give them anti-parasitic herbs. I don't know what, what your view on this, but I think, as time has gone on, I think the question that's been asked in a bit more detail is but why are they there? Are they trying to protect you, let's say, the fungus or the parasites? Let's say, are they trying to protect you from, let's say, heavy metals? What's your view on that?
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Speaker 1:I don't think that there's a substantial burden of heavy metals in the gut and I know that there are kind of theories about our relationship between metals and parasites. I haven't found that to be true in my experience and I haven't found very good evidence in the scientific literature to back that up. Back that up I got a master's degree in public health and specifically in tropical medicine, because I was so interested in parasites in college and in medical school and I thought I was going to do Doctors Without Borders working internationally. And so when I first started doing integrative and functional medicine, you know everybody got a stool test because I really wanted to look. You know I thought that these people had chronic GI issues here in the States because we were missing, you know low-grade parasitic infections and I did a whole bunch of stool tests with that theory in mind and just wasn't finding the parasitic burden that I thought. And then for a time I gave anti-parasitic medications just empirically, just hey, I think you might have this, this is safe. I've used this in other patients, like give it a go, and I just didn't see the results. So from my perspective I'm not as concerned about parasites and I think some of the talk in functional medicine. I think we need to be pushed back on the parasites. This is my perspective. We push back on the parasites. This is my perspective. You'll do the PCR stool test and you find critters that we just didn't have the technology to see before, but I think they were always there.
Speaker 1:And blastocystis hominis is, I think, the case study here. People will see that and say, oh my God, there's an amoeba, you've got blasto. I have to do X, y and Z to get you better. And there are a few cases I think I've seen two in my career where blastocystis hominis overgrowth really really, really high levels because of other problems needed to be fixed. But there is more evidence that blastocystis is a marker of healthy gut flora.
Speaker 1:They did a study I think this was in Finland or Greenland it was a Nordic country and they took samples and control and ill people. The control group had higher levels of blasto, and so I think we're being able to see things that we couldn't see before and we're still learning what's a marker of clinical disease and when we treat it, what is going to make people better. And so I'm not too keen on emphasizing parasites in my own practice and I give you that background because I really thought that was going to be the thing. I just haven't found that to be true clinically in the people I work with in the part of the world I'm at be the thing. I just haven't to be true clinically in the people I work with in the part of the world I'm at. So, um, I'm sure other doctors have perhaps different patients and may may have different experiences, but that's mine yeah, it's interesting with with blastocystis hominis.
Speaker 2:I mean very occasionally I see that come up as positive on a test sure but then you do your clinical correlation and there's just no correlation to the, to the kind of common symptoms of blasto anyway, right? So that's why it's. You know, the first, the first thing I think I was ever taught in functional medicine is you don't. You don't treat the test result right, you treat the person right you were taught well.
Speaker 1:I think that lesson has been missed yeah, yeah, I mean, that was drummed.
Speaker 2:that was drummed into us so hard. You've got to have a clinical correlation. So if someone has a particular let's call it an adverse result from a test, does that correlate with their presentation? So I think that's really important presentation.
Speaker 1:So I think that's really important, Particularly when you're seeing more and more functional medicine tests. That are huge panels of markers and most of these markers haven't been clinically validated. So I can't say you know, marker nine on an organic acid test has been shown in patients with irritable bowel diarrhea, type right. If it's over 12, we know that it's likely to be IBSD. Or you might say, has marker six been validated in a study that it's positive in patients with Crohn's disease? Most of these we don't have that type of information. We have our clinical experience and we have the kind of mechanistic studies that the labs share with us and the idea that this test, this marker, might be related to this infection, but we don't have that pure clinical validation yet.
Speaker 1:That's one problem with the heavy testing that we see in functional medicine. That I think is overlooked. The other is that there are a lot of false positives. So if you just run standard blood tests that every conventionally trained doctor does, there is a false positive rate, usually around 10%. Some are higher, some are lower, but that's just normal lab error. That's a fluke in the sample, a fluke in the preparation. And if you run a functional medicine panel of a hundred markers, it should not be unexpected for 10 to be positive randomly. And so when, when doctors are chasing all of these huge panels, it really makes me worry a little bit about their judgment sometimes, because I feel like that piece hasn't quite clicked in. They think any positive, we have to scream and shout and slam it, and at least in my patients that's not the way to heal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. The other thing as well and again, this is something that's been drummed into me in my training for for many, many years is that there's also biochemical individuality, right, so, as as an example. So I I recent, I recently did a stool test for myself actually not not because I'm in any way, I'm well or anything just because a new test has come out and the labs asked me to test it out for them and give them feedback, et cetera. Now the results came back the best for me, the best kind of result I've ever had. You know, for someone that took antibiotics for 18 years for acne, you know it's taken a long time to get to where I am sure.
Speaker 2:But when we were going through, so I was going through the results with someone at the lab and they were kind of saying, well, yeah, this isn't ideal and this isn't ideal. And I said, but could that not be caused by someone who eats a predominantly meat-based diet? And she said, well, yeah. And I said, well, there you go. And so I mean she wasn't saying it was bad in my case, but she was saying, yeah, so in your case, yeah, that's kind of normal. So you do have to be very careful if you're working with someone and they are kind of treating the test result rather than looking at you as a holistic being, so to speak. You know, yeah, so you mentioned that you've formulated your own binder. What was your motivation to do that?
Speaker 1:There were several, but the most important for me was being able to get the binder that had the best ingredients to my patients. And there are other combination binders on the market, but most of them had a couple problems with them zeolite, silica, humic or fulvic acid. These are things that just didn't have evidence. When I was looking, and I could find 15 references on the ability of chlorella and saccharomyces and charcoal and lactobacillus plantarum to bind harmful toxins, the same level of evidence is not there for those substances and after doing this for such a long time, people just felt worse on those and so I didn't want to be giving my patients a binder that had one of those inferior ingredients in it. That was the first impetus. Second was that I was tired of asking my patients to say okay, I know I want you, on a broad array of binders, to account for lots of different toxins. I know I want you on charcoal, clay, chlorella, right. I know I want you on specific probiotics that influence bile metabolism right and bind toxins, and I was just tired of having them take all these different bottles because it would become a nightmare. All right, you're going to take a tablet of this and two capsules of this, and then this size bottle is different than this size bottle, and then they run out of one binder. I just knew that they weren't taking it out. They were supposed to, and so I wanted the best studied ingredients in a single bottle so that my patients could actually take the substances that were helping. And so those were the two main forces. And then the third thing that I'm maybe most proud of is it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, with not pushing too hard, treated a lot of patients with a lot of different binders. And just again and again, it's very clear that some patients cannot handle high doses right. They tend to be patients who are most toxic and most sick. They tend to be patients who have other conditions behind the toxicity or as a result of the toxicity, like mast cell activation syndrome or limbic dysfunction. Oftentimes these are patients who have a history of PTSD, trauma and abuse. They're very sensitive patients, and if I give them high doses of binders they feel really bad. So I wanted a product where I could give a small dose to those patients, but a normal dose to a patient who may not have had those issues. So what Moss Nutrition and I was able to come up with was a binder with a serving size of four capsules right, so I could give my really sensitive patients one capsule and I could give my stronger patients four, right. And then my sensitive patients. We could titrate up very slowly, because one of the things you learn when you work with very reactive, sensitive patients is that you often will have to go very low and slow. You're not upsetting the body's balance, you're just slowly influencing the biochemistry gently to what they can tolerate, and letting my patients be able to control the titration up has made a huge difference. Those were the main reasons for making the binder. I'll throw one more in I don't think enough people understand how critical probiotics are as binders.
Speaker 1:This is something that became very, very, very clear to me as just the hundreds of hours delving into their research. People think of probiotics as colonizing the gut, which is not correct. They think of probiotics as changing the immune system, which is correct. But I don't think enough people understand how critical some of the lactobacillus species in particular are in binding onto toxins, and I wanted to be able to include the specific strains of probiotics that bound toxins in with the binder. So those were the main reasons and it's working really well. I'm really really pleased with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they're good reasons.
Speaker 1:I mean high quality, convenience, convenience for people is huge, right, if you ask them to do something you ask them to do something they can't, that you ask them to do a treatment plan that they just can't follow. You're not helping them yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 2:It's quite interesting because last year I created, uh two, two courses one, one for professionals and one for the general public to gain the skills required to actually create behavior change. Because I don't know what you feel, but my own personal experience and experience of lots of other practitioners I know is that the biggest challenge is not necessarily giving people the right information. Yeah, that it's actually the person doing the work right. So you can give someone the best nutrition plan in the world, the work right. So you can give someone the best nutrition plan in the world, the best exercise program you can. You can tell them the right time for them to go to bed and how much sleep they can get and what kind of meditation they should do. But if they don't do it, it's not going to work exactly. So, um, I just want to give a big shout out to my course, stick ability, which you can find at stickabilitycoursecom. That's for the general public. So if you're struggling to put things into practice or you're losing motivation or life's getting in the way, I would highly suggest you check that out.
Speaker 2:Did you know that 92% of people fail to follow through on their New Year's resolutions? That's right. Year after year. Most of us start strong and then lose momentum by February Sound familiar, but what if this year could be different? What if you finally had the tools to make your goals stick?
Speaker 2:Introducing Stickability, a simple, effective and affordable program designed to help you overcome the cycle of failed resolutions In just a short time, you'll learn how to create lasting habits without wasting hours or breaking the bank. This isn't just another plan. It's the solution to finally sticking to your healthy lifestyle goals. Don't let this year be like the last lifestyle goals. Don't let this year be like the last. Head over to stickabilitycoursecom now to enroll. It's affordable, easy to follow and packed with tools to make 2025 the year that you have the ability to make it stick. Just coming back to what you were saying, so one of the things you mentioned was silica. Now, silica I've heard a lot about in terms of being able to detoxify what we call aluminium, what you call aluminium what. What's your, what's your view on? On silica, silica water, in particular, with uh aluminium I'm not opposed to it.
Speaker 1:I I just couldn't find enough evidence to justify putting it in my product. So I don't have any mean things to say about it. It just didn't make the cut. You know there are three levels of evidence that you need to look at when I think when, when making a product. The first is in a test tube. Does it show activity, right? So we know, charcoal on a test tube was binding to things. Okay, great, um, but that's very different than a human body, right? So you all at once in a test tube. It's a very, very different ball game If you are introducing a substance into the human biology.
Speaker 1:The second tier is animal studies. You know, are we seeing clinical outcomes in animals? And the reality is, for a lot of the mold toxins there are way more animal studies than human studies because of the billions of dollars in agricultural industries. So people want their chickens to be nice and plump and they want their horses and cows to be able to breed healthy offspring. There's a ton of evidence in the animal literature, so we need to see which of those are applicable to humans. And then, most importantly, clinical data, and so the in humans. We've got trial outcome for bentonite clay. So we better be putting bentonite clay in there, not zeolite clay. And there was just a smattering of studies of silica that I could find um in, like water filtration studies that I just didn't feel were applicable um to to the humans.
Speaker 2:That that I was um with silica, yeah, yeah, and that also I guess, leads me on to something that, again, it's something that is relatively new, I guess, and it's what there's potentially spraying in the skies, right, I don't know if don't know if you have any views on that. I mean, I've heard strontium, barium, silver iodide, aluminium and all sorts, and again, you know if they are spraying that stuff um, again, it seems to me like binders would probably be the best thing to do to help with that, but do you have a view on that at all?
Speaker 1:I don't have any view on that, but I I'm really heartened that the more research I did on on the ingredients I put into probind, the huger amount of toxins that it was effective for, and so I think this is the reason why you want broad spectrum binders, because we just don't know what we're being exposed to. Particularly here in the States. I mean, we have very bad environmental protection laws for a lot of reasons, but companies are allowed to experiment, put whatever they want in products, and we have to prove that it's unsafe before we can get it out. A company doesn't have to prove that something is safe before they put it in a food product or a supplement, and so the reality is is we're being exposed. We don't have a lot of control over a lot of the things that we're being exposed to.
Speaker 2:So it's one of the reasons why I think binders are important. Yeah, yeah, my view is, you know if they are spraying that stuff in the sky? You know, because I mean, in my book, eliminating adult acne for good. There's there's two chapters in there. One chapter is called the outside in detox, and that is identifying and minimizing your exposure to toxins. Yeah, and then there's a inside out detox, which is to try to get the toxins that are in your body out of your body.
Speaker 1:I like that. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:So the thing is, with whatever they're spraying in the sky if they are, but let's just assume for a second that they are there's not really a huge amount you can do to avoid it, right, unless you want to live inside your house. But then there's probably more toxins in your house there is outside anyway, right? I mean the reason, the reason why I'm sure you don't want to get into this too much detail, but the reason why I probably think it is the case just turns out in terms of what I'm seeing my own eyes, up until 2024, 23-24, the winter of 23-24, in the south of England we normally get about 200 days of sunlight a year. Now, compared to you, I'm sure that's pretty bad, but compared to the north of England, that's double. We get double the amount.
Speaker 2:So in the north of England they get about 100 days of sunshine a year. In the south of Englandland they get about 100 days of sunshine a year. In the south of england we get about 200. The last two winters I could count the sunny days on one hand, right, and the other thing in the last, uh, the last summer, the vegetables that I normally grow didn't grow. Now there could be other reasons, of course, but my feeling is, if there's brain stuff in the sky, it's got to come down at some point. Has the soil been poisoned? I don't know.
Speaker 1:But anyway, it's hard to know. But the overall point of we sometimes don't have as much control over our environment as we like, I mean I think of. I've got a patient who lives a block away from a cement factory. She has persistent levels of thallium in her urine. I had another patient in COVID decide to grow vegetables in his back garden here in New Orleans and unfortunately the soil was really contaminated with lead. So he had severe depression with psychiatric features that didn't get fixed until I found the lead level, put them on binders and luckily we're able to identify the source.
Speaker 1:But you know, there are patients that come in and they have these really crazy levels, um, and we're not sure where they're coming from. Uh, is it the food? Is it the water? Is it the pipes? Is it the air pollution? I think that that's um missed often. With heavy metal exposure, what's the? You know, how close do you live near a highway? Um? Is this runoff from the agricultural systems? Is this such a complicated environmental problem? Low in processed foods, right? I think those three things are missed so often.
Speaker 1:And you know we're talking about the ins and outs of using a substance like probind select to bind toxins. But in my worldview, you have to fix those things first, particularly sleep. I can't tell you, lee, how many patients I have who have very high levels of toxins that I later find they have sleep apnea. Right, and the reason why they are not excreting toxins is not necessarily a big genetic defect, it's they're not sleeping right. And so always, always, always, we start with the lifestyle foundations first. Before I add binders, I'm making sure they're doing well. Then you say, okay, we got those basics done. What's the gut health like? Because, as you know, right, sometimes it's as simple as their gut is messed up and it needs help, right? So in my medical practice so many people get a really broad spectrum dose, higher dose of probiotics, right. So I like to use the lactobifido, I like to use saccharomyces, I like to use the bacillus species and I typically give them twice daily.
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:That in and of itself, that twice daily has a detoxification effect because of the way it does they bind to toxins in and of themselves and because of how they change the bile flow, the glutathione production, how they reduce the pathogenic microbes in the GI tract, how it heals leaky gut, the metabolic effects like lower blood sugar, lower blood pressure. That, to me, is the foundation of getting a lot of people healthy, getting the lifestyle, getting the gut cleaned up, particularly if there's GI symptoms. Then, once you have that foundation in place, most patients are in a place where they're, symptomatically, they feel better, got more energy, they've got less brain fog, their GI systems have calmed down. Then we can say, okay, does this person need detoxification? Do they need binders? Do they need N-acetylcysteine or selenium? Right. Are they just needing sauna and fasting? Right?
Speaker 1:Where is this patient? How sick are they? And the real, the beauty and the fun of medicine is being able to take all these pieces and saying what does each individual person need? And everybody's going to be a little bit different. The outside-in detox is going to be different for every single person, and so I think it's just so important that at least once in the conversation even though we're talking about binders and exposures that we sketch out the bigger picture of. Those are the foundations first. You do those things first so that every other subsequent step works better yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:What one uh foundation, I would add actually is the solution to pollution is dilution.
Speaker 2:So hydration is another really key factor as well, and, and obviously, drinking good quality water and not tap water, unless, unless you live in one of these countries, that the tap water is okay, or some of the Nordic countries, apparently their tap water is okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's quite interesting, I think, in terms of you know, I think I was mentioning earlier about I had a client and her mercury levels were really high and then, since we got mercury levels down, her skin cleared up and what was quite interesting, I remember clearly I'm speaking to her and I showed her a test result and I said look, I mean, the mercury levels were literally off, off the chart. They were literally off the chart. She said to me look, I mean, the mercury levels were literally off the chart, they were literally off the chart. She said to me how could that have happened? How have I got really high mercury? And I said, well, look, I don't know for sure. I said, but what I tend to see the most is people if they eat a lot of tuna fish. And she just looked at me like eyeballs wide and I said what?
Speaker 1:And she said I've been eating tuna sandwiches every day for the last 10, 15 years. Yeah, particularly with the blood levels. Yeah, that's absolutely true. I see sushi eaters, uh, here in the states who tend to have particularly high mercury levels. Yeah, those are two very, very common sources.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who would you say? Who would be a good candidate for binders generally, would you say? Hey, rebels? Did you know? I now produce an exclusive no Punches Pulled episode every month. These episodes feature controversial guests who aren't afraid to expose lies, share stories of being gaslit or cancelled and provide real world solutions for achieving optimal health and maintaining your freedom. These are the kind of episodes that got me cancelled back in 2022, booted off Facebook, twitter, youtube and even de-platformed from LinkedIn. But I'm still here and these powerful episodes are available exclusive for subscribers only. For the price of just one takeaway coffee per month, you'll gain access to content the authorities don't want you to hear.
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Speaker 1:Well, they're classically used in patients who have biochemical evidence of toxin accumulation heavy metals, mold or other toxins. That's kind of the first answer. I do think there's a role for using them preventatively, perhaps at lower doses. The last time I talked to Dr Neil Nathan, my mentor, who taught a lot of this, he had told me that he plans to be on binders for the rest of his life. Uh, he had dealt with a mold illness in the past. Um, and I had. I got sick with mold myself after starting to treat mold patients. Uh, I don't know if that's karma or what that is, but, um, uh, I'll be on binders myself, uh, preventatively, I think, just as a way to to feel like, um, I'm making a difference at the toxic load coming in.
Speaker 1:I think those are the two main areas. A third area that I'm beginning to investigate and this is more a niche area, but there are a group of patients who have irritable bowel syndrome with diarrhea, who have something called bile acid diarrhea. Their body is not reabsorbing these well, and then the bile acids are staying in the GI tract and causing a diarrhea. This can happen after people have their gallbladder out, and some of these patients do really well with binders, the binders that suck up the bile acids, the charcoal. Well, with binders, the binders that suck up the bile acids, the charcoal, cholestyramine, they do really well and it can help with the diarrhea.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's a third group of patients who might consider going on binders. Yeah, I mean, I've been in that camp myself for a while that I feel that I will always take binders. Now I do two one-hour sessions a week in the sauna, infrared sauna, good, as you can probably tell, I've been drinking the whole time. I get through quite a lot of water every day.
Speaker 1:Now you're making me feel guilty just chugging my coffee over here.
Speaker 2:And I was telling someone the other day. It's quite interesting because when I, when I go into the sauna now, obviously I put I put a towel on on the seat, I have a towel around my neck and you kind of you know, you're trying to keep the, the sweat off your skin as much as possible because you don't want to kind of reabsorb the toxins.
Speaker 2:That's right and I can't remember when it changed, but for I don't know, it's probably a case of months. There's no longer any smell at all to my sweat. I've never really had what you'd call bad odor.
Speaker 2:Body odor, yeah, but there's no smell at all. I can hang the towels up and it just smells like I've poured water on it and I just kind of feel that maybe everything that I've been doing for such a long period of time I mean, listen, I was definitely toxic 25 years ago when I had really bad acne and I had constipation, and well, you didn't, you didn't have to spend too long around me to know I was toxic, but I won't go into too much detail there.
Speaker 1:um, I think there's something to that, lee I, I really do yeah you know, I I the two main organs I talked about, the stool and the urine. Um, sweat is absolutely a third organ of detoxification and it's interesting, you're able to sweat out certain toxins but not others in a clinically significant way, and so, by and large, you see large amounts of heavy metals that can be excreted in the sweat and you can detect mold toxins. But the mycotoxins in the sweat don't seem to be a big way that we get them out of the body, and so some people will go to a physician who treats mold and they're encouraging them to sweat, and if they can tolerate it it's great, but not because it's necessarily doing a lot on the mold toxins. More so because it's decreasing the total toxic load right, it's helping clear out other things so that the body can then prioritize the liver and kidney metabolism for mold toxins.
Speaker 1:I have a sauna at my house and I'm frequently in the sauna and unfortunately my towels still stink. I've got a way to go to catch up to you, my wife. It was about a month ago. She's like ways to go to catch up to you. My wife is about a month ago. She's like oh man, like what's wrong with you. I was like I don't know, maybe we're binders I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just a really interesting observation that I made. You know and again it's strange that I can't remember the point when it went from. You know, because what I tend to do, rightly or wrongly, so I normally do two days consecutive, and you know the towels that I use. I hang them up and then I'll use them again the next day Probably not a good idea because obviously they've got toxins on them, but you know they're hanging up in the bathroom and I pick them up to use them on the second day and it's like they smell, like they're brand new. So I'll pat myself on the back for that.
Speaker 2:One good job must be, must be doing something right you're doing something right so I mean just just to kind of add to that, really you know who's, you know who who should be using binders. I mean, yes, what you know what you saying. Go through the foundations first, you know, get your hydration, your sleep, your exercise, your diet. Get, get all that right first. Build, build your vitality. Yes, my, my view would be almost everyone could benefit from a binder.
Speaker 1:You know I'm biased because I made a product and I've spent so many hours looking in the clinical literature for mold toxicity and I see a lot of mold and heavy metal toxicity in my practice than everybody is. Maybe I think people are more toxic than they are, but I do think there's a case for anyone really seriously interested in their health to be on binders periodically. I don't know that it has to be every day for the rest of your life. That seems a little excessive and maybe even a little zealous, but I certainly think three months on, three months off, if you are just trying to stay ahead of toxic accumulation, makes a lot of sense to me. You know I'm not. I see a lot of patients who come in and they they're swallowing so many capsules a day, Lee, that it's that. It's that it's crazy, and I think that's part of their problem sometimes, and so I'd never like to say take this forever for the rest of your life. I always want people to be on the least amount of supplements, the broadest diet that keeps symptoms away, Cause I truly think that that's part of being healthy is not having to worry about taking things all the time Right, and so I generally tend to recommend if people want to take binders and prepack uh for the rest of their life or for a long time, three months on, three months off and always be asking the question my body may do well with this now. Does it need it six months from now? Maybe, maybe not. Does it need it a year from now?
Speaker 1:I think if we say that we're biochemically individual, we also have to acknowledge the fact that our bodies change over time. You are a different human being than you were when you were 10 years old. You fact that our bodies change over time. You are a different human being than you were when you were 10 years old. You're a different human being than you were three months ago, when you had an entirely different gut lining, your microbiome's different, your cells age. We go through life and so we need different treatments at different parts of our life and we just want to be open to constantly reevaluating what we need and what we don't need. Take binders, but just use.
Speaker 2:Use good judgment yeah, yeah, and just just to kind of make it clear, I've got no financial interest in your product, right? Um, I guess. The other thing just to add as well you know we're talking about heavy metals and obviously mercury, aluminium. You know they are a commonly used ingredient in vaccines as well, so anyone that's had any kind of conventional vaccine again they might be still harboring those metals.
Speaker 1:I believe that many of the newer vaccines here in the States are switching from the mercury immune sensitizer to tin and Dr Lynn Patrick has commented she's seeing more tin levels on her urinary metal tests and I've seen some of that too, particularly in people who've gotten more vaccines. Now is tin causing problems? We really don't know yet. It's, I think, people who've gotten more vaccines Now. Is tin causing problems? We really don't know yet. It's, I think, something to be aware of. You know, I'm certainly. I don't know if you can see my public health degree. I am overall a proponent of vaccines. They help more people than they hurt, but they do. They're not right for everybody. There are some sensitive patients who are harmed by vaccines, but we need to just keep our eyes open and just be aware of the situation. We haven't been adding tin in vaccines until lately. I don't think that's causing a problem. I think it's safe. But we're not doing a good job on our patients if we're not always asking questions and just trying to do our best to give them the best information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, something that we've touched on already and maybe you want to go into more detail. What are some of the common pitfalls that patients and practitioners might experience using binders?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, great question. The number one is you know, if a little bit of binder is good, more is better, right, and this is not true. So I'll see usually a patient a week who comes into me as a new patient and they're taking too many binders and they've got a catalog of symptoms and I immediately have them stop and their catalog drops down and it's very easy to push the body too much because the way binders work is when you swallow that capsule of binder, you know the toxins become associated on the outer surface of the binder, but then that toxin can just fall off right. So as it passes through the GI tract you may have movement of toxins coming on and off of the binder, but then that toxin can just fall off right. So as it passes through the GI tract. You may have movement of toxins coming on and off of the binder. At the end you may pull out 10 pieces of toxins as an example, but you've mobilized three in the body that have become detached from the binder and it's moving around the system. Pretend your detox capacity is five. If you take two capsules, you're like, well, I'm pulling 20 toxins out, but all of a sudden there's six free toxins. You've gone over your ability to metabolize and protect from the toxins and you'll start to flare symptoms, and so dosing of binders has to be done individually and carefully.
Speaker 1:So the biggest pitfall is taking too much too quickly and not recognizing that this may be causing symptoms. I um, personally, um, if I take more than two capsules of bind binders until recently, I would just feel bad. I wouldn't sleep as well, I'd have a little restless leg, I'd be a little more depressed and achy, and then, just month after month of being on ProBind Select, it's been out for a few months. Now I'm up to three capsules with no problems. Right Now I have very, very, very high mycotoxins still in my urine, and so it's just important that we personalize this for every patient.
Speaker 1:So biggest pitfall is taking too much too quick. The second biggest pitfall is not preparing a patient for binders. Not making sure that they are having a daily stool, that they are not constipated, making sure that they are doing the foundations of sleep and hydration and diet right, that they're moving their body appropriately, making sure those are always done first, and so it is extremely rare that I just start patients on binders right off the gate. It's usually two or three months in, even if they come in and I know they have toxicity. Um, doing the fundamentals makes the binders work better and uh patients get better results.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's. That's certainly always been my, my approach as well. What, um, what um, sorry. In your presentation that you did, you spoke about an example of a young boy that had eczema. Yeah, can you remember that story? Could you perhaps share that story?
Speaker 1:yeah, this was. This is one of those cases that you'll never forget. Um, the boy's name is john michael and he came came into me as a very young child and the parents were at their wits end. They were having to inject him with epinephrine multiple times a week for anaphylaxis. He was down to just a few few foods. He wasn't growing. He had nearly full body eczema hives. He was reacting If they put him in a swimming pool. Miserable, just miserable kid. You could just see from the presentation just the look on his face and his posture.
Speaker 1:This kid was not doing well, no-transcript. High mycotoxins in the urine and very high levels of heavy metals in the urine. The cool thing with this case is that I started him on probiotics and broad spectrum probiotics lactobifido, saccharomyces and bacillus probiotics and he just perked up. He made a big jump forward pretty quickly just simply doing that, because we were binding some toxins and we were cleaning up inappropriate microbes in the gut and then after that we got test results for the toxins back. I started them on binders and then just week after week he fairly quickly got so much better he got off a lot of allergy medicine and steroids.
Speaker 1:At a follow-up he no longer had needed epinephrine injections, and this was a case he was still living in this house, right?
Speaker 1:So it's not like he was all of a sudden magically had no exposures. He just got the right treatment at the right time, and that was probiotics followed by binders, and he did great, right? So I got an email, maybe a year and a half or two years after I was done working with them, as he was just well, and just a picture of a five year old, you know, muscles, curly, set of hair, and I had a T-shirt that said like big brother, so obviously mom and dad had uh had another child, and so it's just really, really neat. Those are the cases that make the really hard work of of treating toxicity worth it, right, when you can uh, uh take a young kid's life and just put it on a completely different path. I mean, that's why any any of us try to uh go into the healing professions is so we can do that. And, uh, if we hadn't treated toxicity, he would still be sick yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 2:It's a terrible condition. I mean, I had acne for 18 years, but I had actually had, I had eczema for about 18 months in the middle of that period. At the same time, god and my sister, my sister's, had eczema and other family members had eczema. So I I, you know, I know what it's like. But when it's a child that's so young as well, it's almost devastating for the parents as well. When the child they were doing everything.
Speaker 1:They had done everything that was recommended, and more, yeah, but the kid was still sick. And that's one of the one of the easiest red flags to think about. Toxicity is if someone has come in and they're eating well and they're not stressed out and they're sleeping, they're taking probiotics and they're taking care of everything, but they're still ill. Right, you have to think about toxins.
Speaker 2:It just popped into my head. So I had someone on my podcast called Brianna Banos and she had eczema and she had conventional treatment, steroids et cetera, and then she ended up with topical steroid withdrawal. I'm not sure if that's something you've come across in your practice.
Speaker 1:Topical steroid withdrawal.
Speaker 2:So she must have been on high, high potency steroids for quite a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, correct, yeah, yeah, that's. That's not something I commonly see. Um, I do. I mean I saw a patient yesterday with very bad full body eczema a young man in his in his 20s. But no, the steroid withdrawal is not something that I have an instant answer to, other than if she's got that bad of eczema, almost certainly fundamentals GI care has been missed and she's probably going to get more improvement working there than focusing too much on the steroids. Once patients get better, they shouldn't need as much steroid, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, quite often what tends to happen is someone has the treatment, the skin gets better, and then they come off the treatment and it's okay for a short period of time, and then it's like eczema times 10 comes back, and then they generally go back to the doctor and not said, well, we need to put you back on steroids, and it's like whoa, hang on a minute. But yeah, no, I just wanted to ask that question. But, um, but, that's fine, that's fine. What's next for you, dr joe?
Speaker 1:well, I uh been enjoying doing uh more lecturing. So more lecturing and teaching uh in this year of 2025. Um, that's, that's what's what's coming. I'll be speaking at the university of colorado in the summer. I'm teaching through um amrita actually amrita nutrition. There in the uk, I'll be doing a two master classes, one one on mold and another on IBS, so those will be coming later the year and uh, yeah, just trying to trying to see my patients uh stay happy and healthy myself and uh teach wherever.
Speaker 2:I can Awesome, awesome Sounds great. And where can people find you online? And perhaps where, where can people get your, get your binder products?
Speaker 1:I'm saying the us and in the uk yep, yep, so uh, my website is dr mathercom w wwwdoc. Tor. M-a-t-h-e-r. I run a solo practice and so patients can reach out to me if they need help. I do treat um patients uh from across the world with telemedmed as a consultant, happy to help if people can't find an experienced functional medicine practitioner where they're living. With regard to the binder that we talked about, it's called ProBind, select, pro for probiotic or ProBind, and it's made by Moss Nutrition and it's distributed through amrita nutrition, and I know I just spoke to the head uh of amrita and it's it's now in a warehouse in amsterdam, so it's uh should be available throughout europe now, awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will be buying uh myself a bottle pretty soon. I'm just waiting for me. I'm just waiting for my chlorella to run out. There's no point getting one right now.
Speaker 1:That's what I tell patients all the time Use up what you have before you switch over. No sense in double doing. Yeah thanks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if anyone in the UK wants to get it and they're not sure, you can always contact me and I can point you in the right direction as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 2:But, Joe, thank you so much. I've really I've really loved this conversation and I'd love to get you back on as well at some point, maybe, maybe to talk about IBS. Yeah, I'd love to get you back on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be great. I really enjoyed myself. Lee, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's been great. It's been great.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:So that's all from me and Dr Joe for this week, but don't forget to join me same time, same place next week on the Radical Health Rebel podcast. Thanks for tuning in, Remember to give the show a rating and a review, and I'll see you next time.
