156 - Breaking the Pain Cycle: A Holistic Journey with Jason Ott

In this episode of the Radical Health Rebel Podcast, I’m joined by Jason Ott for a powerful conversation exploring our personal journeys through chronic pain and healing. We dive deep into the limitations of conventional medicine and unpack the complex, multifaceted nature of chronic pain—highlighting the often-overlooked role of mental and emotional health in the healing process.

Together, we discuss why a holistic approach is essential, the importance of mindset and awareness, and how subconscious patterns influence our health behaviors. We also explore emerging therapies, strategies for breaking the pain cycle, and the critical need to find purpose beyond simply alleviating pain. If you're ready to reclaim control over your health and well-being, this episode is for you.

We discussed:

00:00 Personal Journey and Health Background

07:19 Understanding Chronic Pain

12:22 The Impact of Personal Experience on Healing

19:49 The Role of Mental and Emotional State

25:56 Limitations of Conventional Medical Approaches

34:52 The Mind-Body Connection in Healing

44:20 Awareness and Mindset in Healing

47:01 The Importance of Education and Understanding

47:50 Mental State and Pain Perception

50:03 Subconscious Influences on Behavior

51:48 Feedback and Learning from Experiences

52:46 Finding Purpose Beyond Pain

56:07 The Role of Intentionality in Change

59:03 Repetition and Positive Reinforcement

01:00:52 Stepping Outside Comfort Zones

01:05:55 Emerging Therapies for Chronic Pain

01:13:56 Breaking the Pain Cycle

01:17:58 Future Projects and Sharing Stories

You can find Jason @:

https://empoweredprevention.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Personal Journeys Through Chronic Pain
• 10:32 Becoming a Health Practitioner
• 21:16 The Silent Epidemic of Chronic Pain
• 29:08 Why Conventional Medicine Falls Short
• 42:17 The Mind-Body Connection in Pain
• 54:35 The Power of Purpose and Identity
• 1:04:44 Emerging Therapies for Chronic Pain
• 1:21:54 Breaking the Pain Cycle

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I don't know that. I've met a single person that doesn't have some level of chronic pain ever, even if they're coming to see me for something else. So it's definitely there. I think it's hard for people to understand just how bad it is unless you lived it, to understand what nerve pain feels like, to wake up with it or not be able to sleep. It's a hard thing to wrap your brain around if you haven't actually felt it yourself.

Speaker 2: 0:27

Welcome to the Radical Health Rebel podcast. I'm your host, lee Brandon. This work started for me several decades ago when I started to see the impact I could make on people, helping them to identify the root cause of their health problems that no doctor could figure out, including serious back, knee, shoulder and neck injuries, acne and eczema issues, severe gut health problems, even helping couples get pregnant after several IVF treatments had failed. And it really moves me to be able to help people in this way, and that is why I do what I do and why we have this show.

Speaker 2: 1:03

In this episode of the Radical Health Rebel podcast, I'm joined by Jason Ott for a powerful conversation exploring our personal journeys through chronic pain and healing. We dive deep into the limitations of conventional medicine and unpack the complex, multifaceted nature of chronic pain, highlighting the often overlooked role of mental and emotional health in the healing process. Together, we discuss why a holistic approach is essential, the importance of mindset and awareness, and how subconscious patterns influence our health behaviors. We also explore emerging therapies, strategies for breaking the pain cycle and the critical need to find purpose beyond simply alleviating pain. If you're ready to reclone control over your health and well-being, this episode is for you. Things off. Could you give us a sense of your personal journey, both in terms of your own health and how your educational and professional background has brought you to where you are today?

Speaker 1: 2:03

educational- and professional background has brought you to where you are today.

Speaker 1: 2:12

Yeah, I think I feel like I offer a unique perspective because my life started being a caretaker to my mom not voluntarily, but she had brain cancer when I was a kid. So me and my sisters did a lot of that. That's what got me into the health field. Sisters did a lot of that. That's what got me into the health field and actually first made me want to explore how to bulletproof the body, so to speak. How can we strengthen it, maintain it, whether before a disease or after? So then I got into it professionally and, lo and behold, I had my own autoimmune condition early in my 20s. So I've been a caregiver, a professional, a patient, and then went back to school to be a professional again in a different direction. So all of that combined has given me a unique perspective, I guess, to where I tend to see it differently than some of the practitioners, just because I've been in the patient's shoes before. But all of that over the last 20, 25 years has brought me to this point now.

Speaker 2: 3:17

So what was your kind of education? What routes did you go down?

Speaker 1: 3:22

It started as exercise science. So my mom ended up beating cancer and remained cancer-free to the day that she died. But the reason I went into the exercise science corrective exercise, strength and conditioning nutrition in there too was because her body began to slowly break down, and so we spent years trying to figure out what was wrong quote unquote. And it took almost eight years before we went up to the Mayo Clinic here in Minnesota in the United States and they were the first medical professionals that told us your mom doesn't have a disease, why this is happening now? It's malnourishment, it's lack of movement, there's some emotional damage, et cetera. And they're like you need to go find these professionals and stop wasting your time looking in medicine. And so eight years is a long time when someone's withering away.

Speaker 1: 4:20

And so I went exercise science because I'm like well, I want to teach people about this before, during or after similar situations. Then, once I had my own condition colitis is what I got diagnosed with had some other things going on too. Then I went back to school, specifically for integrative nutrition herbalism. Specifically for integrative nutrition herbalism. I got a bunch of different certifications. It seemed like they were giving me more specified knowledge and tools to use with people right away. So I went that route after I started at university and did it that way, and then when I went back to school, I picked more specialized certifications.

Speaker 2: 5:04

So how long have you been working in the health field?

Speaker 1: 5:09

It will be well.

Speaker 2: 5:10

let's see two to one be 18 years this year as a professional, so it sounds like you've had a similar journey to myself, starting off with exercise, added on nutrition, functional nutrition, and then obviously some other other bits and pieces, which, which is quite similar and are you currently kind of? You work on your own? Do you work in a team? How does that work at the moment?

Speaker 1: 5:40

yeah, I, my business is solely me, but I've been lucky enough over the years to meet people who the ego is out of the equation. They are patient focused, they're person focused. So I have a longtime business partner who now does all the exercise so I can focus on just the nutrition and herbalism, just the nutrition and herbalism. But then I work in a clinic as well with an alternative medicine nurse practitioner, and then it's interesting because she's no one's primary care, which is a little confusing to some people. But she sees it from my perspective too, or I see it from hers, just in a different expertise of where she's trying to bridge the gap between what the patient wants naturally and, of course, allopathic medicine. And where do they fall in all of their options? So I also work in that clinic.

Speaker 1: 6:34

So, yes, we do have a network around us lymphatic drainage therapists, pelvic floor physical therapists because once again I feel like I'm lucky to have met a medical professional that is like, hey, I can do this much, and this is my line as far as my knowledge. But I know people need all of this other stuff and having enough humility to want to refer out for the patient's good. That, in a nutshell, is what we try to do Help them with our expertise, but then, before they walk out the door, hand them off to their next step, and I think that's critical if you've actually walked the path of healing to show them what that next step is.

Speaker 2: 7:17

Yeah, I use exactly the same philosophy. So you know, I mean I've been trained in a number of different areas, but I'm not training everything right. Who's expert at everything? Nobody, right. Yeah, I mean just yesterday I referred a client to go and get visceral manipulation. That's something I've not studied, although I might study it in the future, but that's always been something that has been drummed into me in my own training is that you know, do the best that you can do with the knowledge that you have, but also be aware of your blind spots and know where you do need to refer people out for a fully holistic approach, right, which is sounds exactly the same as what you do I agree and I think that the unconventional route of maybe dabbling in areas to learn that you might have done one course or two but you're like hey, gave you the understanding to recognize okay, I can't help fix it, but I know you need this for whatever you know, your professional or your own experience.

Speaker 1: 8:15

So I love it.

Speaker 2: 8:17

Yeah, I mean I kind of have a little bit of a team, not necessarily close to me locally, because I used to be based in central London, now I'm based further north, but I have a whole team of people. It might be dentistry, it might be to do with eye style and, again, if people need manual therapy, I wouldn't suggest they travel a long way to me to get it. So I always try and find people that are good at manual therapy close to where they live. Yeah, because I do get people that do travel sometimes a therapy close to where they live. Yeah, you know, because I do get people that do travel sometimes a fair distance to come and see me, but they're not, you know, it's just not feasible for them to do that on a regular basis, right? So I always try and seek out people that are, you know, good with for manual therapy, if, if, that's what they need you know, yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1: 9:02

I mean, that is extremely similar to what we try to do um for the patient as well. Yeah, I love it awesome.

Speaker 2: 9:12

so we're going to talk about chronic pain today. Okay, and chronic pain is often referred to as a silent epidemic. Could you paint a picture for us of just how widespread and impactful it really is If you're struggling with pain or feeling like you're not reaching your full potential? Listen to Stephen's story. Stephen, a banker and aspiring Ironman triathlete, came to see me for help with chronic back pain that was affecting his sports performance. After years of getting fit for ski seasons and triathlons, stephen was always facing setbacks, injuries that would leave him frustrated and unable to push to the next level. He came across an article in Men's Health about Czech practitioners and decided to give it a try. In just a few visits, I created a customized exercise and nutrition plan for him.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Over the next few months, stephen saw significant improvement. Not only did he have his best ski season ever, but he also completed his first Ironman. But that's not all. Stephen recommended me to a friend dealing with back pain. After working together, his friend not only eradicated the pain, but also achieved his fastest marathon time. My approach is more than just training. I educate my clients on what's right for their body so they can continue to improve without constant need of intervention. If you're ready to take your health and performance to the next level, just like Stephen did, reach out today for a consultation at wwwbodycheckcouk, and let's create a plan that works for you well, I guess in one sentence is.

Speaker 1: 10:55

You know you're asking how long I've been in this field. I don't know that I've met a single person that doesn't have some level of chronic pain ever, even if they're coming to see me for something else. So it's definitely there. I think it's hard for people to understand just how bad it is unless you lived it, to understand what nerve pain feels like, to wake up with it or not be able to sleep. It's a hard thing to wrap your brain around if you haven't actually felt it yourself.

Speaker 2: 11:29

But it's like the modern day, living as we age people, shoulders, backs, hips, knees, I mean I meet a rare person that would not say that they're in pain to some degree yeah, I mean I again, you know chronic pain is an area that I work with and I know I see a similar thing that again someone might come to me with one issue. They're not coming to me for chronic pain, but actually when you start delving into it, they have also got some sort of chronic pain as well. And just to you know, clarify for the audience, because sometimes people don't always quite grasp what we mean by chronic pain, chronic pain so chronic comes from the word chrono, meaning time, right, so chronic pain is pain that's lasted for a period of time, normally a minimum of six, six weeks, um. But it's quite interesting.

Speaker 2: 12:23

You know, you've spoken a little bit about your history, your colitis, and what I've tended to do in my own career is I've tended to want to help the people that are going through a similar issue that I've experienced. I work with people with gut issues and I work with people with skin issues and, quite interestingly, there's a there's a link between the gut and pain and the link between the gut and the skin, um, but you know, was it 12, 12 years ago now? I ruptured my L45 lumbar and um, so I had about 22 months of chronic pain, right.

Speaker 1: 13:07

And then even even some residual, I'd assume, like to this day, or you feel like.

Speaker 2: 13:13

No, completely fine. Yeah, completely rehabilitated. Um, so I've I've experienced chronic pain. Um, I'm trying to think if I've experienced other types of chronic pain. I have, but can't remember. I mean, I've torn. You know, I play a lot of sports still. I've torn muscles and stuff, but they generally heal relatively quickly. Um, but, but yeah, I can. I can definitely sympathize with people that are suffering from chronic pain, because I have been there myself and it's not just the pain.

Speaker 2: 13:52

One of the things that really hit me was I remember I was hobbling down the street and I was dragging my left leg behind me because I had a dropped foot and I was walking down the street and, first of all, I was feeling down the street and I was, first of all, I was feeling vulnerable physically because if someone attacked me like it could have been an eight-year-old boy I would have been able to defend myself, yeah, and I couldn't run away either, right?

Speaker 2: 14:16

So I've always been a fast runner. So all of a sudden, all that power, if you like, that I had is gone. Yeah, but I think the biggest thing for me was my identity, because I identify with being fit and healthy, right, and identify with being a practitioner and being able to do stuff right and playing tennis. And I think the fear was, am I ever going to get that life back? Because, you know, for a long time it was pretty debilitating and I think, from a practitioner point of view, going through that experience really helps me. Yes, because I can really put myself into people's shoes and really comprehend not just the pain the pain's bad enough but the knock-on effects that that pain has. You know, I couldn't even put shoes and socks on yeah right.

Speaker 2: 15:07

so, luckily for me, it happened in the, you know, in june, when it was, you know it was pretty warm here, um, but you know, coaching clients with a similar issue, you know, just teaching someone how to put socks on. In that situation. I had to work it out myself. Yeah, you don't find that in a physiology textbook, right? No, oh, so, yeah. So that's certainly what I've done, is I've thought to myself right, I've been through these experiences. I want to help people going through the same kind of experience and I think it does help. Having gone through those experiences, it adds an extra bit of value, bit of experience that you're never going to get from a textbook or a course.

Speaker 1: 15:48

Agree, agree. It's like and I don't know if you can relate to this, but when you're in the middle of it, like part of how I found out I had a gut issue and deeper problems, yeah, I had symptoms that I overlooked, but I started getting sciatic pain on the left side, started getting a little drop foot rolling that ankle, found out how compressed it was and that led me on this mission of understanding pelvic floor and diaphragm and then, as that escalated out, then find out the rest of it. But you said something interesting that I think that is why it's hard to understand what chronic pain is. Since you ruptured something. You have a definition higher, I feel.

Speaker 1: 16:35

To where then the next sentence? You're like well, I've pulled some muscles, this and that those heal, fine, but that is so different for everyone, everyone. So it's like some of the things I deal with on a daily basis we're not even close to when I have the sciatic and the gut pain in the middle. So that perspective um around, like the degree of it, I think, is really hard to comprehend and a lot of people, to your point being a silent, it's hard to communicate that accurately to whoever you're talking to, if it's a loved one, a practitioner or not, and I think there's a big pain with your mental, your emotional too.

Speaker 1: 17:18

After that injury and all of that I was about, the only sport I played all the time was basketball. I have not been able to play a competitive game of basketball in a decade in fear that I'm going to have a major injury again. And, as a practitioner, what I got going on here. So there's a lot of different layers of that pain, not just physically that you have to work through and readjust your beliefs, your identity, not just physically that you have to work through and readjust your beliefs, your identity.

Speaker 2: 17:47

And I don't think people talk about that enough, um, about just how heavy that can be yeah, yeah, and you know, one of the again thinking back to that experience, certainly early on, because it, because it was a disc and because discs don't have, you know, a great blood supply, they take time to heal, right, that's just what it is, and I was doing everything in my powers to, you know, improve the healing, but from day to day it just felt like there was no improvement at all, whereas you know, having a history of playing a lot of sport and having muscle tears and things like that, I mean I'm not talking, you know, grade three, I'm talking grade one and two. You know, almost on a daily basis, you feel improvement. Oh, he's feeling better today, right, oh, he's feeling better today, whereas with this disc injury it was, you know, I feel the same as I did three months ago. I mean, it probably wasn't, it probably was a minute improvement, but it was so small you couldn't really feel it. But what for me was really important during that process was I had just a completely unwavering belief that I would get better, even though I think a lot of people in my situation would have probably been quite pessimistic. But I think part of it was because I've seen other people bingo clients coming to me and I've shown them through the process that I learned from courses, from textbooks, and I've seen them improve over time, and so that's probably where I got my own inner belief from from, because I've seen it with my own eyes.

Speaker 2: 19:30

And it was interesting going back to playing tennis again because it was almost like all my strength had now gone and I had to rebuild strength back up on a tennis court. And another thing that I think is quite interesting to bring up now so I missed last season because I tore labrum in my shoulder tennis court and another thing that I think is quite interesting to bring up now so I missed last season because I tore labrum in my shoulder, okay. And so I went back last week, weekend before last, and it was quite funny. It was the first time in my life I felt like an old person because I mean, I had two years out when I did my back and I went back pretty much I was fine. There's a little bit of psychological weariness like, oh, am I actually okay? But I was fine. But what was interesting the other weekend was, first of all, I went over on my ankle. Now I've played so much sport in the last 40, 50 years.

Speaker 2: 20:24

I've never, ever gone over my ankle before never really both my knees were hurting, my lower back was hurting, my shoulder was hurting, my elbow was hurting, my wrist was hurting right. But again, I know enough to know that my body's just not gone through those movements for a long time. But again some people think, oh, my shoulder's hurting, I'm not ready to go back right. But I'm just saying to myself I know it, I know it's better. So I don't know there's a reason why there's pain in the shoulder. But it's not that injury. Yeah, it's what I was telling myself, right.

Speaker 2: 20:58

And then I played again the weekend, just gone, absolutely fine, no pain anywhere. It was almost like my body was like, oh my God, you're doing this thing again. I didn't know you was going to be doing this again. And so the reason I say that is because there's so much psychology involved with pain as well. It would have been so easy for me to play that one time and think, oh, I'm too old, now I'm going to stop playing tennis because my body hurts. But knew, I, knew well, I didn't know, I was confident that when I played for the second time it wouldn't be as bad. I didn't realize I was going to have none of that pain at all, everything was right fine, you know, and uh, that's for me that's.

Speaker 1: 21:41

Another important aspect when someone's trying to overcome chronic pain is the psychological and emotional aspects, which we'll come on to talk about a bit more a bit later yeah, and in labeling what the pain is and if it's part of the process, a normal process, or is it something that's more serious and that's a combination of many things. But I think that's really tough for a lot of people, um to know, like, is it okay to keep going? Um, is this the normal adjusting period or not? Um, and if you've been through the ringer and had multiple surgeries and things, the psychology is massive. It is massive if you can't get the belief straightened out.

Speaker 2: 22:22

Yeah, and that's and that's where's where you know working with someone like yourself can be really useful, right? Because they can reach out to you and say, oh, I did this and I felt this is this kind of normal, or you know, should I not be doing this, you know. And then you can weigh it up and say, you know, it could be this, it could be that it might. Maybe we'll try it again and see how it goes, or or it might be, oh no, yeah, you definitely shouldn't be feeling that.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Right.

Speaker 2: 22:45

Because, again, a we've been through it ourselves to a degree, but then also, you know, having helped a lot of other people, we've got that experience of how people tend to respond, although you've always got to remember everyone's different.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Right Agree with that.

Speaker 2: 23:06

That's for sure. Yeah, I mean one, one example, and I've spoken about this guy quite a lot on my podcast, and he actually came to see me a couple of weeks ago. Uh, because he's running the london marathon in a couple of weeks. And, um he, he came to me, he was preparing to run his first ever marathon I can't remember how many years ago now, maybe 12 years ago, something like 10, 12 years ago and he was away in france and he was running, you know, in very hilly areas and he just got this horrendous back pain. Cut a long story short a few days before, um, the marathon, he came in to see me and by that, by that point, he started following an exercise and nutrition plan that I told him he should have been started, like you know, nine months before in preparation for yes, um, anyway, he came in to see me a few days before the marathon I think it's the day before he flew, because this was in berlin, I think it might be the day before he flew out.

Speaker 2: 24:05

He came in to see me almost as if to say should I be doing this marathon? You know, because when he came back from france, he struggled to walk to my treatment room, which was up four flights of stairs, and, um, what I didn't want to do? Because my honest opinion, my aunt, if I was 100% honest, I would have said to him don't even bother flying, you can't walk, you're struggling to walk. What makes you think you can run 26 miles? But my experience told me that the human body can do amazing things, and I know he'd been working hard on his exercise program and his nutrition. He'd lost a ton of weight as well. He was looking really good, and I thought I don't want to be the one to say no, because if I say no, that's it. He's not going to run that marathon.

Speaker 2: 25:06

This was his first one and he'd been training for maybe a year for it, and so I thought, okay, what's the best way to really answer that question? And so I literally said to him well, I'll tell you what I suggest you do Go to Berlin, do your warmup, stand on the start line, take it easy to start with, and if you get any of that back pain, stop. There'll be other marathons, right? Yeah, you've done all this mileage, you've got the mileage in your legs. Don't be a hero, there'll be other marathons. And so he said yeah, that sounds like a sensible idea. So on the afternoon I was I wonder how he's getting on in his marathon, and as I thought that, my phone pinged, oh geez, isn't that funny, how that happens.

Speaker 2: 25:58

Yeah, and I went over to it and it was him and he said oh, I just thought I'd let you know I finished the marathon. I did it in four hours and 30 minutes and I don't have any soreness. That's awesome, right. So again, it shows you the importance and the power of your mind over your body, because if I'd have said, no, I don't think you're ready, just get ready for the next one, he obviously would never have done that marathon, right, right. But leaving the door open, you know, and kind of saying, well, you know, start and see how you feel. It was just. I mean, that was really just using common sense it was.

Speaker 1: 26:36

But I don't. I love what you did is you said you get the answer, set an environment for him to get to that point and then make that decision himself. You didn't want to say anything to mess up his belief and what he can believe he can do, because that's powerful right. So I love that you did that, because I don't think it's always our call. But if we say and give the right advice, we should be able to lead that person to the point that they make the right decision, and if they make it, then they feel a lot better about it too yeah, um, and if they make it, then they feel a lot better about it too.

Speaker 2: 27:12

Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know one of the things I also know generally, when you tell someone what to do, that also builds resistance to change. So I'm always wanting people to make their own decisions. I mean, what I might do is give people options.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Right, because by giving them options, I'm not telling them what to do, I'm giving them information, and they're still making that decision then you're relying on me and I want to empower you to be able to start to understand this too and figure out that part yourself. So I agree a thousand percent, and I try my best to do that in my own practice for people as well. So I mean there's responsibility in that and we've got to have some responsibility for our health in all parts.

Speaker 2: 28:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I mean one. One of the things I that rings alarm bells for me if I hear the words is if someone says to me something along the lines of will you do me a diet, right? So no, that's not, that's not what I do. I teach you how to eat right for you. Yes, I'm not going to give you a diet, because how do I know that's going to work for you? Because we're all different.

Speaker 1: 28:34

Right, I agree, it's like I'm not going to put you in a box, but I'll help you build your own. That then makes sense for you and you can sustain which is called a lifestyle. But I agree, it's like there's enough people already doing that.

Speaker 2: 28:51

There's enough free programs if you're seeking that I'm I'm not your guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely so. With so many people struggling every day with chronic pain, why do you think the conventional medical approach you know often falls short? Are you struggling with carpal tunnel or any other persistent pain that just won't go away? Josie, a 40-year-old sales trainer, came to me after suffering from worsening carpal tunnel symptoms for over a year. She never imagined that such quick results were possible, but after just three sessions sessions her symptoms were nearly gone. Her improvement was so remarkable that she describes what we accomplished together as nothing short of a miracle. Words can't express how grateful she is for the relief she's found, and I couldn't be happier for her.

Speaker 2: 29:43

If you're tired of dealing with pain and want to experience real, lasting results, I'd love to help. Request your consultation today at wwwbodycheckcouk and let's start your journey to recovery. Are you tired of just managing your chronic pain and ready to start actually overcoming it? I've created a powerful free guide called the Chronic Pain Breakthrough Blueprint, designed to help you uncover the hidden root causes of your pain and give you practical, holistic strategies to finally feel like yourself again. Whether you've been in pain for months or years, this guide will help you start asking the right questions, identify overlooked triggers and take back control of your health, one step at a time. It's completely free. Just hit the link in the show notes to download the Chronic Pain Breakthrough Blueprint today and take your first real step towards lasting relief.

Speaker 1: 30:47

Well, largely because it's pigeonholed to just one part of pain and it's more the symptom, um, and they're not addressing the causes, because I feel like there's usually multiple um and there's layers you got to unpack, um, so it's just a very band-aid approach, like kind of playing whack-a-mole Stop that, but do I stop it?

Speaker 1: 31:10

So it's not at the level of causation and it doesn't, to my opinion, doesn't incorporate all the systems, so like one big system, I feel like whether you're in current pain or you're on the road to recovery or feel like you are recovered I don't know if you've ever had any clients this way but like our vagus nerve and our cranial nerves and that connection to that fight or flight and I know we're back on mental and emotional but like there's a big aspect to that of learning how to downregulate again once you're in a safe spot and getting your body to recognize but the layers that are missing to just mask the pain.

Speaker 1: 31:55

There's too many systems. So I just feel like it's a very incomplete approach and every person should, if they're going to go get the conventional treatment great, do what you got to do to feel better. I'm not knocking her against all that, but I am against if you don't do anything after that in other layers. And so I think we fall short when we think it's as simple as one thing and I wish it was, but it's not so accepting that reality and then taking responsibility and action once you're out and away from the surgery or the pill or the shot or whatever you needed, to then rebuild and learn enough to prevent it from continuing to happen yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 32:41

I was actually had a conversation with someone this morning and I was talking about the experience I had when I damaged the discs in my spine. I went to my GP because I wanted to get an MRI, so he had to refer me to get an MRI scan. He did the referral for me but before I left he said oh, before you go, I need to prescribe you some painkillers and some anti-inflammatories. I said, oh, no, go, I need to prescribe you some painkillers and some anti-inflammatories. And I said, oh, no, it's okay, I'm like I don't need them. And he looked at me like I was Martian or something, or Chinese or something. He said what do you mean? And I said well, if I've damaged a disc which I think I have if I move into a position that's causing the disc to damage more, I want to be able to feel it right. And he kind of looked at me really confused and and he said, well, no, you need to take them. And I said, well, I'm not going to take them, right, I want to be able to feel when my body's in a right position or a wrong position. And he said, well, again, we had a bit of a back and forth and he said well, look, as your doctor, I need to write you this prescription. And I said, okay, fine, and he wrote me the prescription and as I left his office I folded it in two pieces and just threw it in his waste paper bin as I left his office, because I knew I wasn't going to use them, right, you know?

Speaker 2: 34:15

But again, it kind of shows the mentality, sadly, of most medical doctors. They're just for want of a better phrase programmed. Someone's in pain, my job is to numb the pain for them. Yeah, someone's in pain, my job is to numb the pain for them. Yeah, but what I try and get across to people is is that what pain is? Yes, pain is a signal from a tissue to your brain to say that it's damaged, right, or it could be it's extremely hot, or it's extremely cold, yeah, well, in effect, what it's tending to do is make something that's in your subconscious known to your conscious mind so that you can do something about it.

Speaker 2: 34:57

So, as an example, if you was just stepping on something sharp, obviously you hadn't seen it, unless you're silly and you're purposely standing on something that's sharp. But let's say it was a nail and you just, it just touches your foot right. You obviously didn't see the nail. What you're going to get? You're going to get a nerve impulse going to the brain saying oh, there's something sharp on your foot. So what are you going to do? You're going to lift your foot off so it doesn't go through your foot right. So it's your subconscious making your conscious mind aware of something. So that's obviously an acute situation.

Speaker 2: 35:30

But in with chronic pain, that can also be the case. So it might be just as an example again, if I think about lumbar disc injuries, if someone sits a lot of the time, they're sat in a flexed position there's compression of the disc. The compression would generally be at the front of the disc, so it's pushing it posteriorly, so the nucleus is being pushed backwards and normally to one side or the other. Well, eventually, as happened to me, that might start to irritate the nerve. Well, guess what? That's what we call the pain teacher, trying to make you aware that you're spending a long time with poor posture. Now you can do something about it, right?

Speaker 2: 36:15

Because you know someone very smart said the first stage of healing is awareness, right? So we or I certainly encourage my clients to look at pain as a teacher, it's trying to teach you something, it's trying to make you aware of something. But then a word that you said is really important Responsibility, right, and Stephen Covey said that the responsibility is having the ability to respond. Cool, right, yes, so when you have pain in your body, your body's trying to tell you something. Now, the job of a person or someone like us who's working with someone in pain, our job, is to help them find out what the lesson is from the pain. Teacher.

Speaker 1: 37:06

Does that make sense? I agree, yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. It's like the physical body doesn't have complex language to talk back to us. So it's a similar thing, and even past pain, it's like all of the however, that is hire people do testing, go within, meditate. You must do that, else it's like the symptom never stops because it's never addressed. So it's like I don't know a way around it. Honestly, if you've looked at anyone you've helped, including yourself, get out of a situation, you have to to some degree, uh, and if you don't, you remain in that situation yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, what tends to happen is you might, let's say, ignore the pain teacher the first time around.

Speaker 2: 38:06

Right, strike one, strike one, so to speak. Then you continue to ignore the pain teacher. What's going to happen? Your pain levels are going to go up. Right, strike two, but you're still hanging on in there, you're still living with it. And if you keep ignoring the pain teacher, strike three. And now you've got no choice. You're going to have to pay attention, right, right. But again going back to the question why, why so often does the medical approach fail? It's because it's not even looking at, as you said, the root cause of the problem. And, to put another way, what's the lesson that the person needs to learn to overcome? Right thing?

Speaker 1: 38:46

emotionally, spiritually, and it's interesting, I don't know if even consumers or people on the at the end unless you spend time in it like what is the point of that type of medicine? Anyway it they never said they're going to cure it, they never said it's long-term use. I mean, it was invented to be short-term emergency medicine but. But we start to get into this belief that, well, pain is normal and I'm aging and these beliefs people really hang on to of like, well, it's just a part of life, the pain I'm like, well, there's more you can do than just try to mask it, and that begins with that mental awareness, of course.

Speaker 1: 39:28

But it's like it's our medical system and I guess there are other. When you go to functional medicine and you step into other forms, you do get more medical professionals that say, okay, you, I give you this, it's only for this. You need to go figure this out. And even if they could just do that, like there's going to be millions of people that are still going to use them, they're still going to make their money. Just tell us what the next step is, especially if you want to know.

Speaker 2: 40:07

Yeah, and I think another important point just to just to add here, certainly from my point of view so when I had my disc injury, I didn't want to take painkillers right Now. Five years ago I had a root canal tooth removed, right, I didn't want a root canal in my mouth. That's a whole, that's a whole nother episode, right, obviously. So I had a tooth removed. I didn't want a root canal in my mouth. That's a whole, that's a whole nother episode, right, obviously. So I had a tooth extraction, right. And then they drilled a hole into my jaw so they could put a an implant in, right and completely painless. Surgery Didn't feel a thing, right. And um, as I was leaving, they said they said, look, the uh, the pain relief's going to wear off, right. So I've said, I had a few injections in my mouth. Here's a couple of oral painkillers. You're probably going to need them right now.

Speaker 2: 41:06

I took them. Why wouldn't I? I've just had a tooth removed, I've just had surgery, right. So I'm not saying I would never, right, take pain relief, right. It depends on the situation. Now, obviously, having a tooth extract is not a chronic condition, it's an acute condition, right, right. So I just wanted to kind of just make that point that there is a time and a place for pain relief. But, as as again, as you was alluding to, it might be, if you've got an acute condition, yeah, take some pain relief if you need it, but if it's long term, that, if you're still needing pain relief now something, something's not right, right.

Speaker 1: 41:48

Right, I agree. I agree Because it's like understanding the time and place for it. I definitely don't think the masses of us understand, but there is, and I've had some clients of mine that they start to recognize they get on the healing journey. They might use something short-term to break a pain cycle during their rehab, but acute conditions it's funny you mentioned the tooth is like. I actually just had some dental work done last couple weeks and I was borderline. They did offer me but the nerve pain calmed down after a few days. But that, once again, I already know it's going to be completely short term and if it does turn into something long term, well, like you said, that's another podcast to hop into dentistry and all that stuff and how it impacts the rest of our body.

Speaker 2: 42:39

Yeah, yeah, it certainly does. And you know there's a street in central London called Harley Street street and the whole street is medical. There's, there's no other. You know people, people don't live there interesting yeah, there's no it. It's kind of seen as the creme de la creme of you know medical establishments in the uk, like if you work on harley street, you've made it yeah gotcha okay.

Speaker 2: 43:07

Yeah, I mean, I think it just from my experience. It just means you're going to pay a lot more for your treatment because the properties are ridiculously expensive. You know you're talking. You know eight-figure buildings that they're, you know each of them that they're working in. But I, I use a dentist that's based on harley street, so I refer my clients to them because you know the biological dentist. They understand the connection between the bite and the rest of the body, etc. You know? And again, we could go down a whole rabbit hole talking about how the bite can affect pain in the body, right, right, so it's probably another episode, but again, potentially, that you know. And again, I've tracked back people's bite, for instance, to an ACL problem. Right, it was actually caused by fitting together, right? So again, just giving someone pain relief is not going to solve their crossbite. As an example, right, you know something that you said earlier um, you mentioned, like the vegas nerve. Are you familiar with the term? Um, central sensitization? Hey, Rebels, did you know?

Speaker 2: 44:30

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Speaker 1: 45:49

Vaguely. I've heard it, but I think it'd be good to define it. Yeah so.

Speaker 2: 45:55

So basically, if you imagine a tissue's damaged, you get that pain signal going from the tissue to the brain to say, hey, you know there's there's damage here. Well, if there's let's call it excessive input into the nervous system so maybe you've got dysbiosis in the gut, maybe there's some inflammation in the body, maybe you've got inflammatory foods, maybe you've got mental stress that's going to increase the input into the nervous system. So what can happen is if you've got a lot of input into the nervous system, the tissue that was originally injured could have completely healed, but the pain signal was not switched off. That was, yes, right. So you know when you think again, depending on who you listen to.

Speaker 2: 46:47

But let's say every cell in your body turns over every two years. I know it used to be seven years for bone, but I think people are generally saying it's about two years now for bone tissue to turn over. Well, if it's every every two years, every cell in your body turns over. If you've had pain for more than two years in a particular area of the body, how does that work? Because none of the cells that you had when the injury happened are no longer in your body.

Speaker 1: 47:18

I couldn't agree more. I think in my book I referenced the seven-year mark, but I agree I think it's probably quicker than that and I'll take that a little step further. So like polyvagal theory, to me that's like the emotional trauma side of what you just said about the nerve sensitization. So that was a big eye opener for me when I started having injuries, of learning about that and how I've had so many inputs that happened during my development that were normal, quote unquote. But learning after the fact that I was operating at a higher output as my quote unquote normal was a huge eye opener of what I actually need to do to get more benefit health in my body. But I think it's overlooked.

Speaker 1: 48:12

A lot of what you're saying is like healing can't take place if that nerve is stuck, still in a flight or fight, signaling, signaling, signaling. You're not in a place to get healthier cells during that natural regeneration process. Or if you are eating really good and I mean you said foods that are inflammatory and some of those. You know what? If you're the opposite, You're eating the best you possibly can but your body's not in a place to absorb nutrients and take it in and digest it properly. It can just really hinder someone's progress, even if they're doing a handful of the right things. But for the people that go into full remission that I've worked with of whatever it may be, all of them have to address that at some point, like I don't know how we don't do that with the way life is set up nowadays yeah, again, it kind of that.

Speaker 2: 49:12

That concept sprung to my mind when I was playing tennis the other weekend and my shoulder.

Speaker 2: 49:16

There was a bit of pain in my shoulder and I was thinking, surely that tissue is still not injured, because it's, yeah, been 18 months right since since the onset, and so it would have been easy to for me to say, oh, my shoulder's still injured, I'll bet I better stop playing, you know. But I just said to myself that could be something along the lines of central sensitization. You know the stress I was putting my body through at the time because my body wasn't used to it. Yeah, feeling pain, you know most, most of my joints in my body, particularly my right side, and so I'm right-handed tennis player and you know it really served me to understand that concept. And then, of course, I've played a few days ago and there was no pain at all, you know, yeah, so that's quite interesting. Um, so, talking about the mind body connection which we just kind of touched on, how does our mental and emotional state influence chronic pain and why is it such a crucial piece of the puzzle when it comes to healing?

Speaker 1: 50:27

that's a loaded question. So what you want me to, from the same point of why do I think it affects it?

Speaker 1: 50:33

yeah so I think it starts affecting it, like when we mentally are orientating our behavior, our decisions, our actions and our lifestyle from a perspective that is not looking at our well-being. What is my why for this? What is my future purpose? What is the life I want?

Speaker 1: 50:55

When I look back on my life, there were so many decisions and states of suffering, maybe short or long term, that I went into because my mind was not framed right. I might have thought it was I was blind, of course but if I kept having these different things go on, the obvious truth is my mindset must not be right if I keep running into the brick wall. So it's like that was the start of the awareness. Okay, I need to understand my North Star, so to speak, the direction I'm going, and if a decision and action, a new habit I want to start, is not in alignment with that, then that's my answer no.

Speaker 1: 51:39

So I think the first part is like those internal beliefs, whether they're unconscious beliefs or conscious beliefs, being aware of what those are and how they play out over time. Because it's like swiping a credit card you can swipe it all you want, but eventually you get the bill. So it's like that awareness to me set up everything, because then the opposite of the healing is now you start looking at it from the perspective you're explaining of understanding why the signals coming in and not just saying oh, it's part of life and continuing to be bullheaded, going forward. So that mental piece around, those internal self-beliefs to me govern the person's ability to get well more quickly or less quickly. And that is just in just an action standpoint.

Speaker 1: 52:32

We know chemically what stress can do inside the body with inflammation and there's a bunch of those things that limits the ability to absorb nutrients and that just cascades on top of it. But the central direction of making bad choice after bad choice, more inputs into the nervous system, as you're saying, that take you the wrong way. That's the start I try to get my patients or clients to look at. If not you won't make those cascade of decisions to take you back the other way, even chemically or any other way. So I kind of try to take it at the beginning, part of it like the base level.

Speaker 2: 53:12

Yeah, if only there was someone produced an online course that would address those factors.

Speaker 1: 53:23

We need it though.

Speaker 2: 53:25

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Speaker 1: 54:25

And I think we need that education. And like we as the people, because one question I almost asked you earlier when you're talking about is like, how much time do you spend educating? Like with the shoulder you said it was great to understand that the science and you learn that at one point, to make sense of it, to have a different thought when you went to play tennis, to talk your own mind out of that of like no, this might actually be a good thing and part of the process. But like, if you don't know what you don't know, a client wise how much time do you spend educating people on that, just so they get your advice to the depth you want them to?

Speaker 2: 55:03

yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean one of the things with your mental state. Again, just going back to central sensitization, another thing that's been shown is when you're depressed, it actually lowers your threshold to pain. Yeah, right, it's interesting. So you know, you could. You could have a good day and you won't feel any pain, right, you could wake up the next day. You could turn on the news. You watch the news. Now you're depressed. Facts died to her. What? How has that happened?

Speaker 2: 55:41

Right, and it might just be that your perception or your, you know, ability to sense pain has gone up, right, so your threshold to pain has gone down purely because you're feeling depressed. So you know, one of the things that I do with clients I I've actually done this a lot with people suffering with the big c. Right, they have to watch comedy every day. They have to laugh belly laugh every day, right. I don't I don't know why I don't always think about that with chronic pain as well, because that's going to help right so you lift your mood, you increase your threshold for pain, so you can.

Speaker 2: 56:23

You can deal with more before you actually feel any pain right so that's, that's an important side of your mental state as well. But you know, what you were saying as well is really important. If your mindset isn't right, you're not going to do the right behaviors. And again, there are things you can do consciously, but also we also need to understand that there's, you know, Lipson, about 95% to 99% of our behaviors are subconscious.

Speaker 1: 56:51

Right.

Speaker 2: 56:52

Right and one of the things I've had a guy called Greg Schmaus on the podcast talking about survival archetypes which they develop subconsciously. You're right, subconsciously you're right, and you know, in a nutshell, when you're, when you're living in accordance, let's say, with the shadow side of some of these survival archetypes, it's leading you down the wrong path, so to speak. Right, you're not making the right choices because, at a subconscious level, you feel you're more safe by making those decisions. But actually, as an adult now, those decisions aren't serving you. They might have served you when you were a child, when you needed protection, when you needed security, when you needed someone else to do that for you, but now, as an adult, you're making those decisions and you don't know why you're doing it, because it's subconscious.

Speaker 1: 57:45

Right.

Speaker 2: 57:46

So you, you know, if someone comes to me and they they show me their diet sheets last week and I'll say, okay, so let's look at this meal. Okay, so you got a pretty bad response from that meal. What made you choose those foods at that time and they go. I don't know, I don't know, right, well, he's unconscious or subconscious, subconscious, right, right, you know, and you know, the one thing I I do often say to my clients and I'm sure if any of my clients are listening to this they're going to be sick of hearing it but you know, one of the things I say to my clients is, particularly when it comes to food, is that there's no such thing as failure, only feedback, right? So if someone eats a meal and they've got a really bad response to it, I say, right, there's feedback. Was that meal good for you or not? Obviously not.

Speaker 1: 58:40

Right, right.

Speaker 2: 58:41

So again, first stage of healing is awareness. You're now aware there's something in that meal, or you know the. The macronutrient ratios maybe weren't right for you, hence you got a poor response, or it might not been good enough quality, or whatever it might be, but it gives you another opportunity to learn yes, I agree with that.

Speaker 1: 59:00

it gave you some feedback. I agree with that and that's, I would say, overall. Even something that I like to bring up to just about everyone I work with is I take that across all fronts, as you know, back to even your example on the pain signal being a message from the body is like your job is to learn from it and try to figure out the why and you can get frustrated at times. I get that. Not everyone has an inquisitive mind like you or I, where we in a weird way enjoy that, Like I'm super thankful for all the things I went through because of what I learned. But it's like that's where the power is to change and to know you're on the right track with what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 59:44

So it's like I like that and that's a mindset and a way of thinking to frame up well the end result of what may happen, if it's good or if it's not exactly what you desired yeah, one, one of the things you said there was the why right, right, as in why are you in pain, but I believe you said earlier, your why, which is different, right, your why is your reason for being right? And this is another. For me, this is another really important factor when it comes to pain is having a purpose, right, having a goal. Again, the saying by Jerry Wesch if you have a big enough dream, you don't need a crisis. Yes, right. So you've got to have a big enough goal to aim for right. So if there's no goal, where's the incentive to change?

Speaker 1: 1:00:42

It's not there. What's the point?

Speaker 2: 1:00:44

Now getting out of pain may well be, may well be a big enough goal to aim for right, but my experience is that that's not enough for most people I agree with you because it's like get out of pain for what?

Speaker 1: 1:00:59

just to be out of pain exactly right.

Speaker 2: 1:01:01

So you know, another important part of the process is and again, when I'm going through this process with clients, what I say to them is if you've had what it is that you want, what would it be Right? And I say, what do you mean? My body? I say, well, whatever. And they say, well, I want to be out of pain, right, right. But I don't want them to use that word, the p word, right, I don't want to use any negative terms. Focus on it, right. So then I say so, if your body was in, wasn't in pain, what would it feel like?

Speaker 2: 1:01:41

right and you see, you see, the cogs start to turn right. Because, again, most people don't think in those terms. They think and again, we are hardwired to be negative. Right, it's a survival mechanism. Right, if you're walking in the wild and you think, is that a snake, or or a branch of a tree that's fallen on the ground, it's better to think it's a snake, right, and move away than to bend down to pick up the stick and find it's a deadly snake. And right, but you're learning from it. Right, there might be a harsh lesson, that one. So, if you're thinking negatively, flipping that around the other way is to say, well, how do you want your body to feel? And most people, it causes some deep thinking at that point.

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

So they might say let's say it was your back, right? Let's say they had a painful back, how would you want your lower back to feel? They might say well, I want it to be mobile, flexible, strong. You know those kinds of words. Right, Because now you can focus on that positive and create those vibrations, right. But then the next important step is right, okay, once your back is mobile and flexible and strong, what's that going to enable you to do that you can't do now?

Speaker 2: 1:03:14

right so oftentimes people will say things like well, I'll be able to play with my kids, or I'll be able to get back to playing sport, or I'll perform better at work, or I'll be more confident in social situations, or whatever. It might be right, and that's what's important for people to understand. Once they're out of pain, once they've got their body the way they want their body, how is it going to benefit them? How is it going to make their life better? And that's their why, and that's what I encourage people to focus on when deciding on what behaviors to make day to day.

Speaker 2: 1:04:02

So let's say, for instance, part of the issue someone has is that they have a gluten sensitivity, but they love cake. That's not very common, is it? Um? And let's say they're in a situation where they might be at a party and someone says oh, do you want a bit of birthday cake? Remember your why. You have to, right? Do you want to be playing with your kids? Do you want to be back playing sport? Right is, is that more important to you than having five minutes of joy from eating a cake?

Speaker 1: 1:04:31

and so I agree with you and I try to center the person that way. And then you know common things, I want to get busy, or you know it's hard to remember and and so I share with them. I was like, look, you're your own person, you know yourself. I was like, but for me, I hear you and there's things I did to nudge my subconscious every day and do what you have to. I put something in my car, I put something on the back of my phone, I put something on my wrist, I put something on my mirror. I mean all these places of my phone, I put something on my wrist, I put something on my mirror. I mean all these places through my day. So anytime if those thoughts come in, I remember my why, I remember my why.

Speaker 1: 1:05:15

Almost, you're forcing your subconscious to be retrained and orientate a new direction. That has to be intentional Because, to your point, we are trained to see the threat, to see the negative, to avoid pain and seek pleasure, but we have to be intentional about what our future pleasure is going to be. So it's like I personally tell people like I'm the type of person that needs that reminder and I think everyone does because the world around us, people around around us whether it's the news, the food, the social events is pulling you the other way. So it's like if they're going to come at you that much and you're going to be bombarded by all these places, you need to almost set your day up to bombard yourself with your why, the direction you want to go. Uh, regardless of how society or other people are living, yeah, and you know some.

Speaker 2: 1:06:12

An area that I've looked into a fair amount is mind control or brainwashing. Well, what's one of the ways of doing it? It's repetition yeah right, so why not brainwash yourself into a positive situation? I?

Speaker 1: 1:06:27

love this. I love this so much. Like I was talking to my wife about that, I was like you can positively brainwash yourself. And she's like that just doesn't sound right. And I'm like, but that's, I agree with you. So much is is like, why not use something termed as like a negative? Don't get brain brainwashed, but flip it to the positive side of like. But what if you're doing it with the right things? I think that's a good thing yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:57

The other thing, one other thing that I tell my clients as well, is that no one's ever achieved anything amazing whilst remaining in their comfort zone.

Speaker 1: 1:07:11

That's the truth.

Speaker 2: 1:07:12

Right, you've got to step outside your comfort zone if you want to achieve something amazing. Now, if that means saying no to cake, or if that means getting your backside down to the gym three times a week, or whatever it might be, I know that some people find just the thought of going to the gym three times a week, or whatever it might be. You know, I know that some people find you know, just the thought of going to the gym frightening, right, right, but get comfortable feeling uncomfortable and the more you put yourself in that uncomfortable situation, the more comfortable it becomes I agree.

Speaker 1: 1:07:44

It makes me think of a quote like desire follows action. So if you're willing to put yourself in, that you know it's when you start. You get to the gym working out, you might have pushed yourself there and after a few minutes then you start to flip and go the other way. So it's like sometimes you need to do things that you know are right, even if you don't desire them, and once the action begins you pick up momentum and you get more of that feeling. But again, intentional, right. You have to want to volunteer yourself to be uncomfortable and push through that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:19

Yeah. And you know, another thing I think is important for people to understand, because this is a common roadblock I come against. It's not wanting to be outside of the group, and again, that might be. People get encouraged to eat things. They shouldn't drink things, they shouldn't do things when they should be exercising or whatever it might be. But then when you look at your let's call it average population, how healthy are they? Right, if you want to be average, who am I to stop you? But if you want to be, you know more than average. Or you could even use the word weird if you want, right, because weird is you know, the opposite from normal, right, I'm?

Speaker 2: 1:09:18

I'm happily weird, right? You know, I've been wearing barefoot shoes for the last I don't know, 16, 17 years, right? People staring at my feet, I don't care, I don't care, I'm in good shape, right. And you know, when I've been away at tennis academies with my tennis club and I'm going back actually exactly 20 years, and I remember we all sat down and someone said do we have any vegetarians? And a few of them pointed at me and said, no, but we've got a carnivore.

Speaker 2: 1:09:55

That was 20 years ago Now. I wasn't actually a carnivore, but because of my individual needs, I do have a high animal-based versus low amount of plant-based diet and even back then that was seen as really weird, like oh, he eats this really weird diet, you know. But the interesting thing is I still know most of those people today and they must be thinking there must be something right in what he's been doing all this time. Even, I think is really weird because he's still running around like he's in his 30s right, he's got to be doing something right and he's still slim. Like what's he doing?

Speaker 2: 1:10:36

right but I'm doing the same things as I was doing 20 years ago consistently consistently right and that authenticity is huge you know, I haven't been eating the cake and I haven't been drinking alcohol and I haven't been skipping gym sessions and you know, and all the other things that I do, right, yeah, and that's because at some point I was willing to step outside of my comfort zone. Right, but those things now are comfortable to me. Am I saying, am I suggesting I don't need to change some things now? No, you know, I am getting older and some things do need to change.

Speaker 2: 1:11:15

Like you know, I don't recover from workouts as well as I did 20 years ago. So, yeah, there's got to be some adjustments, it's got to be sensible, but any kind of change to a degree is going outside your comfort zone, right, right, because you're, we are, we are creatures of habit, and when someone says or suggests that you change your habit, that's, that's normally stressful for most people, because they're in their comfort zone right, and then step out, to step out of that comfort zone is quite scary, but you know, just to finish off that point, the one thing I would say is the rewards are normally worth it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:54

Absolutely, and like Dr Jordan Peterson I mean that's a big thing, he says is like if you didn't choose to be uncomfortable, that's going to be a very stressful situation. Stressful situation, but like if you choose and volunteer yourself, you, one, it'll be temporary, but two, that's where you start to find your purpose, you, you find what that other feeling is and what that feels like. It's kind of like knowing the difference of your. You know good pain, bad pain, um, is this the good direction? For me it's a different feeling in your body, in your soul, when you are doing that, headed that direction, and so it's like volunteering yourself to go through that. I haven't met anyone that regrets it, like they might complain about it leading up to it, but after the fact, the only people I meet that regret it are the ones that wished they would have done it sooner.

Speaker 2: 1:12:45

Yeah, yeah, completely agree, completely. So, in your view, what are some of the more promising or emerging therapies that you've come across for helping people achieve long-term relief from chronic pain?

Speaker 1: 1:13:04

I think, um, recently, frequency, using different forms of frequency on those nerves, also helping find and get restore signals back to whether it is muscle tissue. You mentioned about discs not having good blood flow. So utilizing, depending on where the part of the injury is, other therapies that can drive connection back to that area other than some of the conventional routes. At least here, not all the states have the same beliefs around what is okay or what's quote-unquote normal, and so that's a new thing for Nebraska, though it is at other states in the US, a new thing for Nebraska, though it is in other states in the US.

Speaker 1: 1:13:47

But it's been interesting and it's been really fun to have people make a certain amount of progress, get to that point and say, well, we're not done, there's more options for you.

Speaker 1: 1:14:03

And then they learn about it, they try it, they're like, oh wow, I'm surprised that helped so much and I'm like it's just another tool for the toolbox as you continue to navigate it. So I like that stuff and if we can get to the spot with what we know can help heal, so like prolozone therapy, putting ozone and putting different amino acids and things in the places they need, the building blocks of the tissue, not just relying on the oral support to make it all the way through our body and find that, but, like, let's get to the source. So, being able to be more specific and targeted for people with their foundation, that they're living in their lifestyle food, exercise, sleep, all of that that they're living in their lifestyle food, exercise, sleep, all of that those are some that are picking up more steam that I've noticed here, and more people are starting to use them in addition to whatever else they're doing.

Speaker 2: 1:14:57

So is that things like PRP?

Speaker 1: 1:15:00

PRP would be one. Prp is a little different than the prolazone because you're going to take it. Like I said, you can put homeopathics, B vitamins, aminos, but you're going to take the ozone itself, bring it up, and so you'll actually do. It's one, two syringes, one needle, at least how we do it in our clinic. So you inject it with the raw materials, then the ozone comes behind it to help the inflammation and restoration of those cells interesting, interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:15:31

You mentioned frequency. Can you go into a bit more detail on that?

Speaker 1: 1:15:35

yeah. So like I'm sure pmf some people have heard of and um, but like soft wave, uh, you could even throw. I'm going to throw like red light, infrared in there. But light frequencies, magnetic frequencies, electrical frequencies, using those to stimulate and power up that mitochondria damage cells, getting the inflammation down from the inside out instead of the outside in using both of them and I try to talk to my clients about that as like don't just try to go outside in, but let's do that and see if we can get some inflammation down from the inside out and eventually it's just going to come together in this perfect marriage where we're going to get rid of that.

Speaker 1: 1:16:21

So that is, people are scared of needles, people don't want to do anything too extreme like change their diet. So with some of the frequency things it's an easy sell to be like all right, you've got to sit there, get some treatment. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you're not out anything except for maybe some time and some cash, but you're not going to have some long-term negative side effect from this yeah, interesting, yeah, it's funny enough.

Speaker 2: 1:16:50

I was talking about the weekend before last when I played tennis for the first time for 18 months and I had a little bit of golfer's elbow afterwards and I, when I play tennis, I always do contrast shower, so hot cold, hot cold. And then I sat down, had my dinner and then I'm sat there, I put ice on my elbow for about, I think, yeah, 10 minutes, took that off, put red light therapy on it 20 minutes, put the ice back on for 10, did that for I don't know, hour and a half or so. Woke up the next morning and the elbow felt absolutely like, fine, it was yeah and so. So I've had someone in the podcast talking about red light therapy. I've had someone talking about microcurrents, which again would yeah, what you're talking about frequency and I've also had someone I'm trying to think the name of them now something wave the stickers.

Speaker 1: 1:17:53

Like soft wave no.

Speaker 2: 1:17:56

I don't think it's soft wave or stem wave, but basically, again, they create light, so they're sending light into the area.

Speaker 1: 1:18:03

Oh, and the sticker you're saying yes, I forget the name of that, but I have heard of it.

Speaker 2: 1:18:09

Yes, yeah, so they're the kinds of things that you're kind of talking about, really. Yeah, because it, you know, I mean the red light as well, and the microcurrent therapy and things like that yes, yes, I um in our clinic, so I work a great deal with cancer and autoimmune uh patients.

Speaker 1: 1:18:26

Of course, there's always pain with them, even though they're coming to our clinic. We work a great deal with cancer and autoimmune patients. Of course, there's always pain with them, even though they're coming to our clinic for that. But that is some things we've picked up from some of the bigger Mexico integrative clinics. I'm trying to bring that technology here and even Europe. I mean there's different parts that I feel like you guys do a much better job integrating herbal therapies and other therapies and you're allowed to more than we are here. So we try to bring those here because it's like, well, why not? Why not hit it from every direction? And cancer, you can really disrupt its communication with different frequencies and I've seen some good uh success with people using those things are you familiar with?

Speaker 2: 1:19:12

um the homeopathic uh trauma no I know, I know homeopathics is not as big in the us as it is in europe. Um, so there's this homeopathic called trauma. It can be used as an ointment, it can be a tablet, but it can also be an injection. And I remember looking at some of the studies they did on athletes I think it was sprained ankles, if I remember right, and they had two, two groups One had hormone injections and the others had trauma injections, so homeopathic injection and I don't remember the time spans. But the athletes that had the trauma injections they got back.

Speaker 2: 1:20:02

I think it was something like in half the time than those who had the cortisone injections. And of course cortisone causes its own problems, right, whereas the trauma doesn't cause any, any problems at all, you know. So that's potentially another thing kind of more topically that I know that can be used as well is trauma. I often recommend it as an ointment for clients, although potentially the injection would probably be more effective. But obviously it's a bit more difficult to get that because you have to refer them to a sports doctor to inject it.

Speaker 1: 1:20:39

Right, but if this is something they can take with them and whatnot, I'll have to ask yes they can take the tablet form, they can just rub it on.

Speaker 2: 1:20:48

So I think, if I remember right, actually I did rub some of that on my golfer's elbow as well the other week. So you know, tackling those things from the inside and the outside, why not, you know?

Speaker 1: 1:21:03

I agree. I agree. I'm going to look for that because we got a lot of the injectable homeopathics that one of our doctors use, so I bet you do. Fingers crossed we can get our hands on it.

Speaker 2: 1:21:15

Oh, good, good, we'll see. Yeah, I mean, I've seen really good results with it with clients over a long period of time as well. I've been suggesting it and also there's lots of good scientific evidence on it as well. So so I think I've got one more main question for you okay, and then I get the patient at 9 30 fyi.

Speaker 1: 1:21:37

I love this talk, but okay cool, cool.

Speaker 2: 1:21:40

So, for those stuck in the pain loop, what are the key steps to breaking the cycle and reclaiming control over their health, well-being and, ultimately, getting out of pain?

Speaker 1: 1:21:54

What do I believe?

Speaker 2: 1:21:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:21:57

So, first and foremost, I think they need to be consciously aware now and practice awareness, because it's not something you flip a switch. You got to practice it. You get better over time. But I think they also need to look back through their history of how they got to where they're at, and that's a big part of bringing that awareness to light. You got to understand that, to know where you're going. So I'm a big fan of Jordan Peterson and so I really liked some of his exercises where it was like describe your hell, describe your heaven.

Speaker 1: 1:22:28

Not everyone can visualize and do that themselves. So getting someone to really understand that, to know where they're at, and then letting them know there's really three phases In my opinion. There's stopping the progression of your current chronic issue, so don't think you're going to go from this to just glorious health. We're going to get you back to like a neutral phase first, where you're not getting worse anymore, you flatline some of the symptoms and then you're going to start moving up that ladder and feeling better. So it's like that to me is day one.

Speaker 1: 1:23:02

If they can't grasp that, it's hard to then insert and adjust and learn from all the various things you're going to do over the months to years ahead to improve your health.

Speaker 1: 1:23:14

Because you need that mindset of just being aware and trying to learn from the things that happen, versus beat yourself up or immediately go into like a flight or fight situation where you're thinking the world's going to end for you and let them know it's a timeline.

Speaker 1: 1:23:33

So I don't ever tell someone specifics on what's possible, but I try to frame their mind so they don't get let down by their own beliefs and expectations and paint a picture with kind of what you talked about earlier the cell turnover. This is a natural process in the body. We are going to try to create the best environment so your body does it better, but you got to let that play out. So how you make that most effective is by trying to get as consistent as you can with the things we know your body needs and then let it play out, let your body evolve. So I want to frame that up from the get-go because if you don't have that mindset and I don't think a lot of people do naturally, like you said, you're very positive with the direction you wanted to go. Not everyone can do that positive um with the direction you wanted to go, not everyone can do that um. So I try to start there with the mind side of it before we're getting into the actual body.

Speaker 2: 1:24:36

Yeah, I'm exactly. That's always where I start as well, because it's as I said. You know I could give someone the best corrective exercise nutrition, lifestyle plan, but if they don't do it, it's useless. Yeah, yes, 100. And it's interesting you mentioned heaven and hell, because I've always looked at it as dream and nightmare there you go.

Speaker 1: 1:25:01

It's the same thing, right same thing yeah, and, and totally getting that from jordan peterson, but either way it paints that what do you want to live, or what do you want to try to live, which there's going to be a lot better days if you're aiming for the stars and land on the moon than if you don't at all yeah, absolutely awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:25:21

So what's on the horizon for you, jason? Any exciting projects or plans in the works?

Speaker 1: 1:25:27

I would say the main thing is, uh, get the book launched, I gotta get the audio book, but then, um, I want to help people start telling their stories, so I think the second half of the year, because these conversations are so valuable, to learn the process and the journey, and I think we do too much in society, social media, of like problem solution and nothing in between. So I want to. There's people that I've worked with that have asked and want to share their stories of healing. So walk through it with them. I was with them actually in their life so they're comfortable talking. But paint that picture so more people can mentally visualize what you and I are talking about or trying to educate on. So I want to start helping people share that story, because I feel like that's where we're getting lost here is not understanding the process, the mindset behind it, the steps forward, the steps back and just how normal some of those things are.

Speaker 2: 1:26:29

Awesome, great stuff. And finally, where can listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you're doing?

Speaker 1: 1:26:37

Best place would be my website, empoweredpreventioncom. Got it on the shirt, All my social handles are on there contact info, everything. That way, I'm very active on social media or try to be, but TikTok LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all of it. So you should be able to find me just about anywhere at Empowered Prevention.

Speaker 2: 1:27:05

Awesome, awesome, jason, thank you so much for sharing your insights and experience with us today. It's been a real pleasure.

Speaker 1: 1:27:11

It has been, and thank you for having me, lee, it has been a very good thing.

Speaker 2: 1:27:15

Yeah, it's been great having you on. So that's it from Jason and me for this week, but don't forget to tune in same time, same place next week on the Radical Health Rebel Podcast. Thanks for tuning in, remember to give the show a rating and a review, and I'll see you next time.